98. The Pros and Cons of Asynchronous Work + Employee FMLA Overuse

Transcript – Episode 98: The Pros and Cons of Asynchronous Work + Employee FMLA Overuse

Joe:
The idea of asynchronous work is suddenly everywhere. Is that a good thing? Plus, a listener asks for advice about an employee overusing an FMLA leave and the toll that it’s taking on her team. That’s what’s ahead now on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. The show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now here’s your host – speaker and author, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Welcome back, BossHeroes! And welcome to the first day of my 46th year on Planet Earth. Thank you for raising the roof in our little video window here, Suzanne. That’s so nice. That’s right, yesterday was my birthday, February 25th, which I happen to share with professional wrestler Rick Flair. Woo. Now I am. Yes. <laugh>. That’s right out of my 80’s childhood wrestling fandom right there. That’s right. Though I was the Hulk Hogan guy, more so than a Rick Flair guy. But I was bringing up the…the birthday, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Okay, time out for the intro. Did you just bring up Randy Savage, Macho Man?

Suzanne:
I did, I did. See!

Joe:
Wait, I thought I liked you before, but that is a solid, like two-point bump cuz he was great.

Suzanne:
Yes!

Joe:
I was gonna do this whole opening spiel about how I’m not someone who struggled with birthdays, and I like them because people kind of want to come outta the woodwork and just say, hey, I was thinking of you. Happy birthday. And I think that’s all really nice. Do you like birthdays, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
I love birthdays. You know, I think I’m pretty special most days, but then it gets <laugh>, you know, a light shined on it on my birthday, so Absolutely. Absolutely.

Joe:
That’s right. So, what is your month, and day, you don’t have to tell us the year, but what is the month and date of your birthday?

Suzanne:
December 17th. So I am, you know, I have to compete with Christmas a little bit.

Joe:
Yeah. 

Suzanne:
But it’s okay. I think my parents went above and beyond to make sure I wasn’t lost in the holiday madness.

Joe:
Okay. Well, I did get, a lot of people asked this year, like, is there anything you want for your birthday? And, you know, shameless plug, I told everybody the same thing. I said, hey, pre-order book sales are really important. So, the nicest thing someone could do for me right now is to pop over to Amazon and pre-order a copy of my new book, Employalty or two. That way, you know, you order two and you have one for you, and you have one for a, a colleague, or a reading partner, and it’s like you’re getting a gift. So that’s, you know, my ask — if BossHeroes, you’ve been listening to the show for a while and you like what we’ve been giving away for free here for two years, then like, hey, help a brother out and snag a book. That would be amazing.

Suzanne:
Yes. Everyone should get Joe what he wants for his birthday. He is the birthday boy. He deserves his, all his wishes to come true. And I’m happy to say I’ve already done that for you, Joe. So Happy Birthday!

Joe:
Awwww!

Suzanne:
Yes. Belated birthday.

Joe:
Oh, thank you so much. That’s amazing.

Joe:
And so, we will now move seamlessly into one of our topics for today. And I alluded to it in the opening, and it’s really the pros and cons of asynchronous work. So, are you familiar with this term, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
I like saying it asynchronous work.

Joe:
It’s a fun word, isn’t it? 

Suzanne:
Yes, it is. I’m kind of ambidextrous. Did you know that?

Joe:
Oh, I see what you did there. You hit us. We had one “a” word and then you hit us with another interesting “a” word. Yes.

Suzanne:
And when I first see the notion of asynchronous work made me think of doing two different things with my hands. But that’s not at all what you’re talking about is it?

Joe:
No. So no. Asynchronous, asynchronous work is just work that is outside of a set time. And it doesn’t necessarily require scheduling. And it doesn’t. And it means that not everybody is doing their work at the same time. So, if you work in a bank and everybody who works at the bank starts at 9:00 and ends at 4:30 and everybody who’s working for the bank is at the bank and they’re all working at the same time and nobody’s working outside of those banker’s hours, that is synchronous work. So asynchronous is just the opposite of that, right? It’s, it’s outside of a set time. It doesn’t require scheduling. And there’s just been this massive rise in asynchronous work. And, you know, there are a number of reasons why this is happening. And the first has a lot to do with the trends that we’re seeing in the workplace with people pursuing better quality of life and looking for ways for their jobs to fit into their life in more convenient ways.

Joe:
And so, the rise of asynchronous work has been tied to work-life balance, right? Being able to, to change my schedule and my work shift length and things like that to accommodate my work-life balance. There’s a focus on wellness, right? That if I am able to engage in asynchronous work, maybe I will be able to better access things like exercise during my day or cook a healthier meal if I’m working from home. Things of that nature. We see it tied to productivity. Some people wanna engage in asynchronous work because they’re able to align their work times with their periods of greatest focus or creativity. And so that’s certainly a benefit to asynchronous work. And we also know that asynchronous work, being able to decide when I work and how I work, that can really be a crucial ingredient to supercharging commitment, right? Something that we talk about a lot here on the show. What else, Suzanne? What are the other benefits of asynchronous work?

Suzanne:
I think the benefits are everything you just said, plus that whole idea of energy and yes, you know, the ability to feel like you’re, you’re giving your energy when you need to, to the things that you want to give it to. So, if it’s helping kids, kiddos with their homework after school, giving your energy to them, which then fuels you up to go and finish that project that night. Some sense of motivation and energy. I just like that idea of it and a feeling of I’m in control. Yes. At least where I can be a feeling of, I can make things happen. I can set boundaries, I can stretch when I need to stretch, I can retract when I need to retract. I can put more energy into my relationships and into my well-being. So, all kinds of positives there, Joe.

Joe:
You landed on what I think is really the big idea behind asynchronous work, which is that we know autonomy, right? Having some influence and some choice over how I work is a crucial ingredient in employee engagement. And when you look at all the research on intrinsic motivation, right? What moves us from I have to do this to, I want to do this mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we know that autonomy is one of those core central ingredients. And so that’s kind of the underlying foundational ingredient that that asynchronous work brings to the table, right? And it gives people the opportunity to adjust their work to fit their lives. So if you have kids or you’re the primary caregiver to an elderly parent, having that influence over where and when and how you work, that is going to not only supercharge your commitment, but it’s gonna make it more likely that I as an employer am able to retain you because this job fits into your life with all the other demands that are pulling on you outside of work.

Suzanne:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I think the argument also exists, Joe, that with that autonomy, that motivation, that sense of connection, the work can be even better. Right? Okay. So, I’m not just doing it because I have to get it done by five to punch my clock and leave the door. I’m doing it where I feel like doing it and my energy’s there. So, it’s not only that I feel better doing it, ideally, we’re producing better work. Yes, the creativity is higher, the contribution is, you know, deeper, richer, or better. We’re giving our best selves to that job when we focus on it in the right time. Yeah.

Joe:
It we talked about the book in the opening, but there’s a whole chapter in there about flexibility and the ways in which mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, it does influence people’s willingness to join an organization and stay long-term. And it really is the number one most requested workplace benefit in the world now because of this massive shift that’s taking place around how work fits into people’s lives. And as part of writing that chapter, I wrote about the CEO of an IT company who acknowledged that giving his programmers the option to work asynchronously was the best decision he ever made. He said, our programmers, a lot of them are night owls. When we were trying to engineer this around a certain schedule, it just didn’t work for who they are and how they’re wired. When we turned around and said, listen, we don’t care when you do this, but this is the output that we expect.

Joe:
This, this is what we need to accomplish. This is the volume of work you decide when you wanna work. He said there was an instant transformation. He said, some of these folks, because they’re night owls, they would just crank down and grind late at night because that’s when they’re at their sharpest. And he turned around and he said, you know what? The work that we got back was higher in quality and it came in faster because we turned off our expectations around when people would do this work and only focused on the results that we wanted them to produce. And that giving them that gift of that asynchronicity, I think I’m saying that right. Yeah. Yes. Not only did it supercharge their commitment, but it leveled up the, the quality and the performance.

Suzanne:
Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> and think of how it expands your, the talent base for you. If you’re not just recruiting in a, you know, 60-minute commute radius of your office location. It opens up the world. Cause a lot of this has happened because of time differences, time zones. So now I can hire a programmer in California and not worry about, you know, them keeping up with those of us in the, you know, eastern standard time from the work perspective.

Joe:
So yes. Yes. Now, I would also argue though, that there are some cons, right? We just talked about all of these pros, but in an asynchronous work arrangement, there are some things that can do harm or that we have to be careful of. Would you like to go first, or do you want to hear my list?

Suzanne:
Let me go first Yeah. And then see what else you’ve got because I, yes. I think with that, with autonomy comes great responsibility.

Joe:
Ooh. Right. It’s almost a Spider-man reference there. Well done <laugh>.

Suzanne:
And that’s on two people’s part. That’s the employee and the boss. Yep. So, from the employee perspective, I worry, the concern is for, I wanna say the less mature, and I don’t mean by age, I mean the less emotionally mature it may have trouble with that sense of autonomy. It may feel autonomy, it may feel too gray, or you know, too no boundaries. And they forget to do the work. Yeah. Or they get caught up or they end up using it as excuse, which I don’t like to hear of not getting something done because of something else. Right? Yes. You still have a commitment to your job that you have to fulfill. And you could even see the employee on the other end of the one that still suffers from burnout. You know, we didn’t say that. I think we alluded to it, but if, if the asynchronous schedule gives us the opportunity to manage our time, we should have more energy. But there are still those that might not have that self-control or disciplined and not still not work.

Joe:
We struggle to manage their time and their attention. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Suzanne:
Yes. And then, so then the employer, so the boss has the responsibility of being able to set clear expectations set those goals, have the right conversations around accountability and burnout and boundaries and work product, all the things. You don’t get to stop doing that. In fact, I’d argue you have to be even more clear and succinct about expectations.

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
That’s what I have, Joe.

Joe:
I love it. And spot on. And a great kind of framing for this around the maturity piece. And I think about mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, what that breeds when someone is put into those environments, and maybe they’re not structured in such a way that allow them to thrive mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, they end up being less productive or, or for lack of a better term, less responsible. Okay. And, but then organizations turn around and then they install all of these monitoring systems or check-in systems because they’re, they’re worried about that being the direction that it goes. And they end up policing people and sending this message of, we don’t trust you, and there need to be check-ins. And some places are keyboard monitoring and camera monitoring and just crazy things that are out there. And then that mistrust actually creates disengagement. And you get into a whole cycle of sabotaging the very commitment that you set out to spark by creating that asynchronous environment.

Joe:
And so, your point is well taken, which is that it’s not for everyone, especially for folks who crave structure, right? For mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. For, for people who rely on that kind of structure to keep them honest, this could be taxing or, or this could be anxiety-producing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I think that’s a really mm-hmm. <Affirmative> a really interesting point. The other angle to this that I think we had to be careful about is that asynchronous work can lead people to feel like work is endless and at all hours, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because sometimes a firm start time and an end time does allow us to have boundaries. And you can still have a, a start time, and an end time in an asynchronous work arrangement, but that’s a set of, you know, rumble strips that you have to set for yourself in some cases. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. I also think that asynchronous work environments can sometimes rob us of many of the interactions that we know are important on teams that lead to connection and camaraderie that lead to innovation and creativity. If everybody is just focused on outcomes and is only interacting through programmatic or platform channels like a Slack or something like that, instead of gathering at a prescribed time to, to interact or to explore ideas together, you know, asynchronous work that that’s one of the pieces of this that you have to sort of plan for in order to help people access that creativity and those relationships.

Suzanne:
Yeah. Because it doesn’t, it’s not a synonym of independent, right? It’s not meant to imply that you go off and work by yourself and always by only by yourself. Right. I just worked with a client, and it was like unintended consequences of creating autonomous workplace. Yeah. So, they can come and go as they want, but there are, they produce, so they have clear deliverables that have to be done. But what was happening is everyone was looking at the deliverables of their particular Yes. Job and forgetting that, or not forgetting, just not putting it in their radar that they were impacting somebody else. So now we’re going back in and working with them on building the accountability as a team. Yes. Right. So, it’s, well, I got my part done Yon own kind of mm-hmm. <Affirmative> mentality and no one was ever that rude, or it wasn’t Yeah. You know, it’s not contentious, it was unintended. You know, I’m just, okay, got my stuff done, I’m out. Yeah. Well, could you have helped the next person in the line or were you being proactive for the person that whose work you’re waiting for? Lots of different things that we needed to put back into the conversation and the, in the awareness for them.

Joe:
Oh, such a great point. Cuz we could talk about how it’s not meetings based, and we could talk about how it’s not schedule based and that it is outcomes-based, but those outcomes have to be framed. Not in me, but in we. Right. Right. And, and so putting that in at the front is really so important. It’s such a great point. And so, if, if folks who are listening to this, if you’re trying to think about ways to create more flexibility for people where can you create some opportunities for asynchronous work that starts with a framing of we, right? We, we still have these shared outcomes that we need to drive toward. I think it’d be really innovative and interesting, Suzanne, to see organizations where maybe people don’t have the opportunity to work from home mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, but can we still grant those employees the opportunity to work with some of the autonomy that we’re talking about here?

Joe:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, for example, you know, when we see an organization who has people working at the front desk all day every day, maybe we can move people around a little bit so that two hours a day, that person’s able to go into a back office and do some other kinds of work in whatever order or whatever pace makes sense for them. It’s like a little independence break from the structure of the schedule and the requirements. You may not be working at your own schedule from home five days a week, but that is just, that’s a little sort of step in the right direction, isn’t it?

Suzanne:
It, it sure is. And even go to, go back to your example of the banking industry. Okay. you know, you’re, you’re at your desk, you’re at the teller station at almost the mercy of the transactions that are presented before you Yeah. And with tellers, especially on their feet all day, paid to smile, be polite Yeah. Responsible for all that money, having flexible schedules. So maybe it’s overlapping schedules, maybe it’s you come in early this many days, stay late that many days. Or working with your team to come up with as a boss, getting your team to come up with ideas Yeah. To make more creativity. You know, the often the best challenges for employees are solved right there at the front line Yep. Where they’re facing them, not by the smart people upstairs all the time. So, engaging your team and figuring out some of those creative ideas. Absolutely. putting your schedule blocking time off, if you do have childhood pickup, if you’re got ahead to the elementary school from three 30 to three 50, then block it off your schedule so that you’re setting expectations appropriately for those around you.

Joe:
Yes, absolutely. Things like that. And shout out to Bank tellers. We, we were in the bank just the other day, and I remarked Jamie was with me and I, I remarked our, Jamie’s our producer. I remarked, man, that’s a tough job. You’ve gotta be, it is super service-oriented. You’re dealing with a lot of different folks from a lot of different walks of life. You have to explain things to people that for some are very elementary, like maybe how to use an app or how to, how a checking account works, but for others aren’t. Right. And the evol the, the evolution of technology and software, and yes. You know, mobile banking has changed so many things. I remember standing in that line and just kind of watching those folks and thinking, man, you, you’ve gotta be on all day long to be in that role.

Suzanne:
You do. And, and to be responsible for somebody else’s money, you know, next to their health. There’s nothing more intimate. Right. It’s scary for people. And then you have to look good. I, I was a teller trainer, worked in banking for years, you know, and here we are paying them the lowest wage in by golly, you better look good. Polished. Yeah. Know all the regs and regulations, know all the technology. And so, it’s shout-out to tellers out there. 

Joe:
Shout out to tellers. That’s right.

Suzanne:
We appreciate you <laugh>.

Joe:
Well, folks, we are constantly talking about issues like this. What are the conditions we need to create at work that lead people to join a team and stay long-term? And we’re not just talking about those things here on the podcast. Twice a month I publish my boss better. Email newsletter. We’ve been doing this for eight years, twice a month I send out an email with videos, articles, tips, and tricks. It’s like continuing education for leaders who want to boss better. And if you’re not getting those emails, let’s start. All you have to do is text the word BossHero to 66866. That’s BossHero, all one word to 66866. You will get a prompt asking you to enter your email address. And when you do that, you will go right onto the list to receive our Boss Better Email Newsletter twice a month. We never send you spam; we don’t sell your list. It really just is about sharing with you resources, information, and any opportunities to participate in additional events or training. So BossHero to 66866,

Joe:
And now we come to the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
Suzanne, you’ve heard me say this every time we do this, but I’m gonna say it again because that way somebody who is new to the show knows what we’re doing. Bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why every week we give you a question you can use at meetings to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. We have a musical theme this week and our camaraderie question is as follows, what is a song that you find motivating every time you hear it, aside from our camaraderie question of the week theme music, because that’s downright inspiring.

Suzanne:
<Laugh> It sure is. I don’t know why. Every time you have a question, I need to come up with three or four answers. I don’t, I don’t know what that says about me. And I’m, I don’t know that I need to know. But so, I saw this once, so I went straight to my Spotify. Ah,

Joe:
Good. Good call.

Suzanne:
I have a folder that says some faves. You know, <laugh>. So, some faves.

Joe:
Did you just roll your eyes when you said that if you’re not watching on YouTube? (Suzanne: I did.) She made fun of herself, by the way,

Suzanne:
<Laugh>. Brilliant folder titling. So, I picked out a couple that you might appreciate, Now That We Found Love by Heavy D.

Joe:
Heavy D and the Boys. Okay. All right. Yep. We can all hear it playing in our head. I’m with you. Yep.

Suzanne:
Right. And then I, I picked Oh, Roar by Katy Perry Uh-huh <affirmative>, just in case. I need to feel like, you know, flex my muscles and I’m tough enough on a certain day. Uh-huh <affirmative>, but my favorite right now is Andy Grammer’s Good to Be Alive. Yeah, that’s a great one. Yeah. That’s

Joe:
Great. Yay. It’s a really good yay. That’s like the start of a very inspiring playlist right there. Yes, yes, yes. It’s like the adult contemporary top 40 chart of the past few years is what you did there.

Suzanne:
<Laugh>. I did, I did do that. There

Joe:
I have, I have very nerdy answers to this question, <laugh>. And one of them isn’t my fault, the one that’s not my fault is one song that I find motivating every time I hear it is Lose Yourself by Eminem. I, I was I’m a part of a couple online speaker communities and a few years ago somebody posted, hey, do you have like a warmup song or a hype song that you listen to before you go out onto the platform and speak? And if so, what is it? And all these speakers wrote down all these different answers. But what was really cool is like 65% of people all named that song. Really? It was really far and away the number one <laugh> like most popular pump-up song that people would listen to Lose Yourself by Eminem from the movie, 8 Mile.

Suzanne:
Grammy for that or something. Yeah.

Joe:
Oh, well, I believe that won the Grammy and it won an Oscar, I think for wow. For a movie, for a movie song. Wow. so that’s one. The other one is way dorkier. Are you ready? 

Suzanne:
Okay, I’m ready.

Joe:
Because if, if you took my phone…

Suzanne:
Am I allowed to laugh?

Joe:
Yes, absolutely. I will. I will own this laughter. Okay. The answer is anything from the Rocky IV soundtrack. <Laugh>.

Suzanne:
Yes. Awesome. Anything?

Joe:

<Laugh>? Yes. Anything from the Rocky IV soundtrack? <Laugh>. Because Rocky, the music in Rocky four is like the greatest most kind of cheesy motivational music <laugh> from the 80s that you could find. Good. Okay. But if you’re working out and you put on the Rocky soundtrack, I guarantee you will run faster and farther and lift heavier weights.

Suzanne:
Huh?

Joe:
You will.

Suzanne:
I love that. And that’s, you know, for now, that you’re celebrating the first day of your 46th year, that’s Apropos

Joe:
<Laugh>. Well, I need, I need a little help to help me run faster and farther. And so

Suzanne:
Rocky IV soundtrack.

Joe:
Yes. Now and music from any of the Rocky movies is good, but Rocky four, right? Not only does he win the fight at the end, but he ends the Cold War Suzanne in Rocky four. Oh, does he? He does. He ends the Cold War. Didn’t know that.

Suzanne:
No recollection of that. No. I…

Joe:
Oh, you gonna have to go back and

Suzanne:
Watch out. Music’s great. I might <laugh> telling my husband.

Joe:
That’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
Hey folks, I have been told that I have not talked about something enough on the show lately. And so, I wanna mention this very quickly in passing before we get to our final segment, which is a mail time. And that is that we have created a book club kit for the new book I’ve written that’s coming out called Employalty, which you’ve heard us talk about a little bit. We know that organizations often will order multiple copies into their organization because they want all their leaders to read it. They want their leaders to have the shared vocabulary that the book creates. They wanna use it as a developmental tool. And so, because this happened with older books that I’ve written, the prior books that I’ve written, what we decided to do is create a book club kit with the release of this book. And so, what we’re doing is if you order 10 or more copies of employee and you show us proof of purchase, we’re gonna give you the book club kit for free.

Joe:
It has in it a kickoff video for your developmental work or your book club at work. It has a robust discussion guide that you can use to move through the book together. And then it also has an implementation checklist that you can use to apply the learning that your group collectively experiences by working with the book. So, all you have to do is just order 10 or more copies, send proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com. And a screenshot is fine. We don’t care if you tell us, you bought 10 copies of the book or more, or 40 or 60 or however many you need for your organization. We’re gonna trust you. Just send us some kind of proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com and we will get you the book club kit.

Joe:
And now it’s Mail Time. All right. A little peek behind the curtain BossHeroes we’ve talked about this before, but when Suzanne and I record these episodes, we do not talk at all about our questions or topics until we hit the record button, because we don’t wanna take away any of the sort of organic interaction that we have with each other around these. But right before I hit record today, I said, man, this FMLA question we got is tough. And Suzanne, you said,

Suzanne:
Yes, it is.

Joe:
Yes, it is. Is that what I said? She said, yeah. And you said, oh, F M L A stuff is all tough, man. We gotta call HR is very.

Suzanne:
Yeah. Yeah. Darn HR.

Joe:
Darn HR. That’s right. And we both are recovering HR professionals, and so we bring some expertise to this, but the caveat here, and I’ll say this at the top and I’ll probably say it again in the middle, is that if you are dealing with an FMLA issue, you absolutely must consult your HR business partners internally where you work. If you are in a small business and you do not have an internal HR person, then you absolutely should consult with legal counsel or an HR consultant outside of your organization. With that said, here’s the question we got from Jackie in Indiana. Hi Joe. I manage a clinical area in a hospital, and I have an employee that has a lifetime FMLA. She follows all the rules, guidelines, and policies laid out by the company. The problem is that she calls off every Monday our busiest day after her weekend off.

Joe:
She also calls off after her normal day off during the week. She’s on the evening shift, the busiest time of the day. Her call-offs greatly affect the department. I have longtime employees that never complain coming to me now complaining about her call-offs, the constant busy Monday call-offs, infuriate them. They say, you know, she’s my friend, but something needs to be done about her call-offs. HR has twice looked into this issue. They state she is following all the guidelines. I’ve asked if I can push her shift back to a later time, but HR states that would be discriminatory. Do you have any suggestions? What do I tell the members of my team that complain their morale is low and we are short-staffed A lot going on here in this question. Suzanne, where would you like to start?

Suzanne:
Well, I’d like to start with the Family Medical Leave Act, you know, was built, and created and fought for good reason. Yes. And all of us in one way or another can benefit from it, whether it’s our spouses or our children who work or whatever, you know, and God forbid something happens to us personally where we need to exercise that, right? So, we must be respectful of it. And it is a complicated law mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and it is, you know, do rely, like you said, and I’ll reiterate, rely on your HR professionals and legal counsel to make sure you’re following all the lines. However, with that said, there are, you know, someone, any, anybody who’s under the protection or under the guidelines of FMLA still has to follow other policies. So, while HR keeps look, has looked into it twice, I would still continue to work to, to look at your call off policy. Do they get points if they don’t show up? What are the other policies associated with it that might end up being your friend in finding a solution? Not in beating up this employee, right? But in finding a solution. Right. So that’s, that’s where my mind went to first. Joe,

Joe:
I’m so glad you led with let’s not demonize F M L A, because so many leaders have been victimized by someone who overuses or misuses, FMLA, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, we’ve all had that person on our team who gets a paper cut and they go, hey, I got a bleeder here, gimme the paperwork. I’m gonna be out six weeks. Right? They’re overusing or manipulating the system. And, and anyone who has been victimized by that can end up having a, you know, a bad taste in their mouth around F M L A. And I think one of the really important things to acknowledge, and Jackie acknowledge this in her email, is this person is following all of the guidelines. And it would be really easy to demonize this person that the call offs, he or she is engaging in, oh, she said she, so it is a, she are abusive, inappropriate, unnecessary, but we don’t know that whatever the reason is that this person has an F M L A leave, they might legitimately not be able to work every single time they enter in a call off.

Joe:
And so, Jackie, I think that’s really important for you to keep at the forefront of your mind, is to just be careful that your mind isn’t making up a story about this person’s commitment or about this person’s fitness for duty. That may not be true, especially if this is a circumstance where HR has investigated. I really think you’ve got two things that you’re asking us for advice for. One is, and this was sort of in between the lines, is there anything I could do to get this person to call off less <laugh>? And then the other side of this is the impact on your team. And so, let’s come at the, the first one for a minute here, Suzanne. Is there anything that this leader can do to just maybe gently remind this person that these call-offs are, are damaging and that maybe we only want her to do them when it’s absolutely necessary? Is that inappropriate? How, how do we get to that with this employee? Should we get to that with this employee?

Suzanne:
I think we should. I think it’s, it’s fair to have that conversation. You have a business to run, you have patients to take care of. You have output that’s, you know, people are expecting from you. So, I think if it’s a constant busy Monday by constant, is that every third, every, every other, I don’t know. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, let’s look at the pattern and then maybe making it a later schedule doesn’t work, but maybe it’s, let’s not schedule them on Mondays. This person on Mondays is, but involving them in that conversation, I would ha with HR I think is, is, is fair, it seems to be in this situation, is there something we can do because of the impact to our service level and the impact to the team mm-hmm. <Affirmative> that we can build more consistency with expectations. Yes. and you know, it’s, it’s confidential about what’s going on. So, you do always have to assume positive intent and that the right thing is being done, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t creative solutions.

Joe:
We talk a lot on this show about noticing patterns and you’ve got a pattern here, Jackie, which is that this person pushes the button on their FMLA option on these Mondays consistently. And you can show that, you can lay that on the desk in front of somebody, whether it’s HR or this person, and you can say, hey, clearly this is a pattern. And clearly there are a lot of Mondays when you’re not available to us due to your leave. And so, we need tore, we need to create a solution that overcomes the problems that spark when we are short-staffed on this day as a result of this. And that doesn’t have you moving into a conversation at all as to the legitimacy of their call off. And, and I don’t want us to necessarily go there on this. I want us to say, when we look at the data for 20 of the last 23 Mondays, you haven’t been available to us.

And so maybe we need Jackie to go to her higher-ups and say, we need to consider a, another part-time position that maybe comes in on these Mondays and every other Thursday to offset the loss that we have as a result of this FMLA leave that’s in place for one of our people. I think that is a conversation that probably should happen. The interesting thing about this is if you have this conversation with this employee to kind of say, hey, here’s a pattern that we’re having. I know your leave allows you to do this. I respect that. This is not a conversation about the legitimacy of that. This is a conversation about cutting down on the negative impact of an unannounced call-off. And so, mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, can you and I put our heads together and come up with a way to reduce the short notice or to reduce this pattern in some way while still honoring your leave and giving you the necessary time off that you need as a result of your situation?

Suzanne:
I think that’s fair. I think because, you know, we’re talking about professionals and having those candid conversations appropriately candid not crossing the lines. And in similar situations, you might find it something I’m not saying easy to solve or that it’s simple because it’s important to this person, but something that is a transportation issue. Yeah. Or a childcare issue or, you know, getting breakfast issue. I don’t know. That might have with the right conversation, a fairly simple solution.

Joe:
And she asked in the question, or she acknowledged in the question that she asked HR if she could change this person’s shift so that the call-offs were less impactful, negatively impactful. Was that something that was broached with this person? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> not as a, I’d like to do this, but what are our options? You have an interest in a different shift, right? Where the call-offs are less impactful, who knows? That could go in the right direction. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the other thing that having this conversation does is it allows you to maybe move into the other question that you’re asking us, Jackie, which is tackling the impact on the team and on the morale. Because I think you can give voice to the pattern, and I think you can give voice to that. This is having a negative impact on the team. And if you’re really thoughtful about how you have this conversation, what I’d love to have you shine a light on Jackie, if you could, is what is this costing her in the eyes of her team?

Joe:
Or how would her life improve with her teammates if these call-offs were less frequent mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, right? If so, maybe she’s noticed that nobody ever will switch shifts with her anymore. And it might be because they all think she’s getting away with murder. You know? So, and this is a coaching conversation. It’s not where you sit down and say, hey, I’ve noticed, and you should know that this is costing you X. It’s, hey, you know, it’s my job to share with you what is really happening in our workplace, good, bad, and indifferent. And I need you to be aware that when these call-offs come in, there’s kind of a ripple effect. And I think it’s important that you understand what that ripple effect is. And so, I want us to put our heads together and figure out if there’s a way to cut down on the ripple effect because it, it is costing you something.

Joe:
Or maybe it’s a coaching conversation where you say, hey, what do you think it’s costing you when our whole team ends up being unexpectedly short-staffed again and again and again? Have you ever thought about that? And I know we’re, we’re in a gray area here because that person has every right to come back and say, but I have a legitimate F M L A leave. And so, I’m not really, I that that’s you problem. It’s not a me problem. That’s a staffing problem. That’s not a, you know, relationship problem for me. I have a legitimate leave and they are right. They have every right to say that. That’s what makes this tricky. Right, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
It is tricky and it’s hard to tell. Exactly. Call off. So, it sounds like unscheduled leave. So, you’re, and that can be part of the, the Yeah. Tenants of FMLA, but there has to be a backup plan mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And again, I think looking at other policies that might be a friend here, the, the, the sometimes you get points, let’s say if you call off and the impact that that’s having. So, it’s, it’s touchy because you don’t wanna shame this person or make them feel bad. Maybe they already feel bad. Yeah. But I also think someone who’s on F M L A becomes ostracized in and of the fact Yes. Because you feel like you can’t talk about it. Yeah. So, it’s, it’s gotta be creating a situation where you have the right kind of conversation. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> somewhere in between.

Suzanne:
They’re following the policy and don’t bring it up. <Laugh>, <laugh>. Yeah. You know, somewhere in between where it’s more of a solutions-oriented, we’re in this together you know, your job as a boss is to support her and support the team and support the work and output that’s expected of you. So, finding that different kind of dialogue mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and maybe it’s, and you know what? I don’t know what’s in the discrimination of change. I, I, you know, that’s worth unpacking a little bit because maybe, maybe a day shift is something that would work for her. Yeah. Maybe it’s not the night shift. And, and I think just to reiterate the point, it’s not that you’re going to do it to her or demand it of her. You’re gonna have a conversation and see what, what might work.

Joe:
You bring up a really great point about advocacy and that is that mm-hmm. <Affirmative> really the best framing for this might be to sit across from this person and say, hey, you have a legit F M L A leave. And I know that, and you know that, but not everybody out there knows that. And when these call-offs keep happening, they are the ones that keep getting punched in the gut with the extra work and being short-staffed and so fair or unfair, they’re feeling frustrated and so mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, can you, can you help me think about the best way to explain to them what’s going on without violating your confidentiality? Right. You’re, you know, there are HIPAA laws, there’s a lot of things that go into this that I’m not necessarily gonna be able to, to share with them. Or do you wanna say something to them? Let’s put our heads together and think about diffusing the tension that this is creating. Yes, it’s a legitimate FMLA leave, but it’s also creating this tension on the team. And yes, you could say not my problem, but the truth is that’s a, a pretty immature response, right? Let’s, let’s put our heads together and make this work for everybody by coming up with a way to try to diffuse some of this tension.

Suzanne:
And, and up until that point, I think you’re right. And up until that point, there’s things that Jackie could be telling the members of the team that complain and maybe she has that would be under, you know, what, what has been said. You know, asking for patience showing gratitude for any flexibility that they show, reinforcing positive responses that she sees coming out of the team. You know, just gratitude. Maybe there’s even an incentive, a short-term incentive for taking on an extra Yeah. Extra work that might be available or options for Jackie here too.

Joe:
Well, one of the things we talk about on this show is that Suzanne and I don’t ever claim to have the answer. I think what we try to do here is kick around ideas and options. And so, Jackie, hopefully, there is something in the word salad that we just dumped out here, <laugh> on the recording that is of service to you and of use to you. And we’d love to hear back from you and keep in touch and for anyone else who is listening, if you have a question or a struggle related to your team, to someone on your team, to how you’re leading people in this new age of work, we would love to talk about that struggle and maybe to provide some help or some ideas and options to you. So, you can email your question here to the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com. One more time. You can send us a question at bossbetternow@gmail.com, and we might answer it on a future episode.

Joe:
That’s all for this week, friends. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being with us, and we’ll see you next time.

Suzanne:
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