94. Are You Vulnerable Enough? + Post the Damn Salary!

Transcript – Episode 94: Are You Vulnerable Enough? + Post the Damn Salary!

Joe:
Vulnerability has become the latest, greatest trait that leaders are encouraged to develop. We’ll talk about what it is, why it matters, and how to do it without overdoing it. Plus, post the damn salary! We’re starting right now on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now here’s your host, speaker, and author, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Greetings and salutations BossHeroes. Welcome back. This show is your show. It’s the place where we explore many of the challenges and issues that come with leading people in a modern world. We love finding ways to give you the advice, humor, and encouragement you need to create the conditions for people to thrive at work. And we especially love answering your questions, which you can always send us at bossbetternow@gmail.com. Please welcome back to the show, executive coach, HR advisor, and cheese connoisseur, Suzanne Malauski. Hi Suzanne.

Suzanne:
Hi Joe. I do like me some cheese, but I, I’m trying here in, you know, in the first end of the first month of the year, I’ve not had much cheese. It’s not, not in the menu selection.

Joe:
So, cheese is on the no-list?

Suzanne:
Yes.

Joe:
Oh, okay. So, cheese is on my yes list. Isn’t that interesting?

Suzanne:
It is. So, I’m doing a little bit more of the low carb –but lean — less dairy, less cheese, which has been very, very difficult, less, less successful. Nevertheless. I know vegetables, Joe. Yes. Vegetables.

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
But I also looked up, do you know what the French word for cheese maker is?

Joe:
I don’t.

Suzanne:
So, if we know a sommelier is the, the wine expert. I was, I’m like, okay, there’s gotta be a cheese expert. Yeah. And so, it’s fromager. He’s your cheese maker or cheese expert in French.

Joe:
Listen, if I wanna impress, I feel like yeah. Introducing myself with that word as opposed to a sommelier…

Suzanne:
Yes.

Joe:
Would even sound fancier. What’s the word again?

Suzanne:
Fromager.

Joe:
And it means I’m a cheese expert.

Suzanne:
Yes. Cuz mage is cheese.

Joe:
Ah

Suzanne:
There you go.

Joe:
Dropping knowledge on the podcast. Wow. And I bet if you, if you are a, what’s the word?

Suzanne:
Fromager.

Joe:
If you are truly a fromager, I bet you earned some real cheddar. Yeah. Sorry. That was, that was a big swing at a dad joke. <Laugh>.

Joe:
Alright, why don’t we move quickly into our first segment which is going to be about vulnerability.

Joe:
So, quick backstory, I had the experience last year around this time of doing an informal poll on LinkedIn. And I do a lot of publishing on LinkedIn. If we’re not connected on LinkedIn, by the way, friends, feel free to connect with me there because we are publishing a lot of interesting content there as well these days. And I put up an informal poll about a year ago where I asked folks, what is the number one skill needed the most to be a great boss? I was curious how people from all walks of life would answer this. And it wasn’t a poll where you vote on a couple of different options. This was a fill-in-the-blank in the, you know, put your comments below. And I was knocked out by the number of people who responded with vulnerability. And people wrote beautiful paragraphs about why this was the most important skill that leaders could acquire in order to be more effective leaders. And I had a really interesting reaction to this because my first reaction to this, Suzanne, was I’ve never thought about vulnerability as a skill. I think about it more as a characteristic, right. Or a trait. I mean, I guess you could even argue that it’s a habit, that it’s a, that it’s a mindset. Sometimes I think you could, you could apply all of those labels to the concept Okay. Of vulnerability. And so, I’ve been thinking about that for a while. And obviously, we’re living at a moment right now where vulnerability as a concept has received more attention than ever before. Thanks in large part to Brene Brown and all of the work that she has done to research and publish and write about the subject. And we are seeing a lot of organizations and leaders invest in becoming more vulnerable as a way to more effectively lead people. So, I thought it might be worthwhile for us to talk a little bit more about vulnerability here on the show, Suzanne.

Joe:
My understanding, the way that I think about vulnerability is that vulnerability is really just a willingness to show up as a flawed person and, and to acknowledge where we might have concerns or doubts or fall short. How do you understand the concept and where have you seen it starting to play a role in how leaders show up?

Suzanne:
So, I, I think I would define it similarly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> similarly. Yeah. That word. See, I’m vulnerable, I can’t pronounce that word. Yikes. <laugh>, right. So, it’s, it’s being transparent and truthful in the right times. In the right places. Yeah. And I’ve run into it with, with young managers or managers who kind of have this bias, or this blind spot, or this antiquated belief that I’ve arrived mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, I’m king of the hill or queen of the, the kingdom, whatever it might be. And I have to know the answers, right? I have to be the one to make the decision. I have to tell everybody what to do, and it’s just not the case. So, vulnerability means that you’re, when I, when I don’t know when I need to lean on the team when I want information from the team, I was, first, I would say where I thought of vulnerability the most was around establishing trust with your teams.

Suzanne:
Because A, if you think you’re perfect, you’re not. And they’re gonna figure that out in a hurry. If you think you need to be perfect, you’re never gonna hold that. You’re never gonna get there. So, it’s being honest with yourself and then honest with others. So, then it gives them a reason to trust you. So, if you don’t know how to solve that problem, or you’re not sure, or you feel afraid, you know, or a little trepidatious, it helps build trust with people. Cuz I’m like, oh, Joe’s a human. This person is real. Yeah. They, they’re thinking a lot of the same things I am. So maybe I even connect and can trust where they’re coming from so that I, I connect it with building trust.

Joe:
Yeah. For the most. Absolutely. I so appreciate how, and I don’t know if you were doing it intentionally or this, this just happened organically, but you really acknowledge that this is both about knowledge and emotions, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that sometimes we’re vulnerable because we don’t know an answer, or we don’t have the information. But sometimes we have to be vulnerable by acknowledging the emotions that we’re experiencing. Right? I’m, I’m having doubt. I’m, I’m afraid, I’m uncertain, I’m scared, I’m overwhelmed. We know that this is tough for leaders who have long felt like they need to demonstrate power and authority in order to be successful. Especially, you know, if you think about some industries where being sort of the alpha is so critical to success. I’m thinking about like, you know, wall Street and banking, investment, you know, financial sectors, things like that. If you’ve ever worked in blue-collar roles, right? Where I, my dad built houses, I spent a lot of years on job sites in high school and in college. And there’s definitely a sort of macho alpha mentality in some of those places. And so, some people come into those leadership roles hardwired to not do this. But we’ve seen so many benefits from it. Why is it worth admitting when you don’t know or admitting when you’re afraid?

Suzanne:
Well, why is it worth it? Because I, I, I go down the path of empathy mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, because it builds empathy between two people. Because I can imagine how you might be feeling, you shared how I’m feeling. Oh my gosh, I’m feeling the same way. So, there’s feelings in there. Oh my gosh. Right? Or like you said, if it’s knowledge or a skill or something I’m not aware of, I know of, that makes me feel like you’re part of the team because yeah. You’re reaching out to somebody else who might have that answer or that skill set. And then Joe, you know, you were talking about manufacturing and, and blue-collar and, but your experience in healthcare, think about our doctors mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. Yeah. And that, that emergency room doctor, or the one in the surgery suite, they have to feel like they have to know all the answers.

Suzanne:
Right? Yeah. So that notion of vulnerability might be even hard to fathom for people like that, but it’s still, there are opportunities to say I need your help, or this is tough. Yeah. And that people just feel like they can relate to you better when you’re, you’re honest like that. Do I believe there’s a tipping point of going too far? Absolutely. We are not asking you to freak out or melt down <laugh>. right? — on a regular basis. Oh, I was trying to build Oh, no. Because people are still looking for direction or the tone or the, the spirit of which we need to go forward from a leader. Those are all the things you have the opportunity to influence and set from a culture perspective or just the feels in the room. So, acknowledging that this might be scary or that this is, this is new water, we’re going new water, new territory, <laugh>, so we’re going

Joe:
Uncharted waters. Right? Is that what I was I was with you. Absolutely.

Suzanne:
Mixed my metaphor there, but you know, we’ve never done something like this before. Yeah. So, let’s move forward. I’m gonna here … I’m gonna make mistakes. You’re gonna make mistakes. So even setting the tone from like, this is gonna be the great experiment for our teams, but we’re in it together. So, there’s all kinds of benefits from that, but just like anything else that it can’t be overused. Yes. you know, it’s not the, I’m going to start a meeting with a tear to try to make you, you’re not trying to make people feel sorry for you. Right. you’re not trying to get them to we were laughing. I, I gave a presentation back in December. I had laryngitis and

Joe:
Yes,

Suzanne:
I asked my colleague is that hard to listen to me talking like that. She said, well, I think you’re getting the sympathy vote <laugh>. Yeah. Like, so you do, you know, you’re not gonna milk the sympathy… you know, vote all the time because it’s, you don’t want, this is hard for me as a leader, this is tough. Be careful. Yeah. You know, just, right. Not too far, but somewhere in the middle where you show you’re human. I think you said it first, right? That you’re human. You’ve got, you’ve got the feels that they might have. You might not have, have all the answers, and that’s why you have a good team around you so that we can figure this out together, I think is a, is an angle.

Joe:
When you overuse it, you become the “Boy Who Cried Wolf”. Right? You go from Yeah. Authenticity to it being a performance. And that’s actually a, a way to destroy trust right now, that’s for sure. If I feel like you’re being inauthentic with your emotions, then you’re manipulating me. And that, that’s absolutely a recipe to shatter trust badly. Right? And you’re right. Anytime, you know, vulnerability can be a strength, but when we overuse it, it turns into a weakness. And if you’ve been around a person who expresses vulnerability too often, there are times where it feels like a performance, or there are times where you wanna say, you know, suck it up buttercup. Like, yeah. It was a hard day. Like, we gotta just do it sometimes. Right? And that’s…

Suzanne:
Why you paid the big bucks, and you have the title

Joe:
That’s right. Or the, or the mediocre bucks and still have the title.

Suzanne:
Right. Or whatever. Yeah.

Joe:
Yeah. Right. but I, I think it’s such a great point because when we overuse it, we can erode people’s confidence in us mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. and we know that our confidence directly informs people’s perceptions of our competence. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And we know that if, if I am going to follow my leader and buy into my leader and trust my leader, I need to perceive them as competent. And if you’ve ever worked with someone who was incompetent, either because they didn’t have knowledge or skills, or they weren’t emotionally intelligent enough to navigate difficult times or, or troubling situations, that erosion of competence also shatters trust. And so, I, I’m so glad you brought up overuse because it was on my list of things to talk about. Okay. And so, finding that kind of, that balance and, and I, in terms of the way to do that, that authenticity, I think is the first point to really key into how do I show up authentically with my team, share my worries and concerns, but not have them be the focal point of the entire conversation, not have them be the central pillar to why we’re gathering and what we’re talking about.

Joe:
You know, I, I think that when we invite others to share their feelings mm-hmm. <Affirmative> by sharing our own feelings, we become better leaders. We get greater intel and insight into what people need from us as leaders to be more successful, to feel more supported, and to ultimately be more productive. And so sometimes vulnerability as a device to unlock insight that you need to lead others better. It, it is a skill, it is a, a tactic if you will mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. But again, it has to be authentic.

Suzanne:
It does. And it takes some finesse because you don’t want to show up as the victim. Right. I, we’ve, we’ve talked before, I think in the last episode I said, I talked about leaders are going from one of us to one of them. Right. So, you’re, you know, so as a leader you have this, you have access to information that you might not be able to share. So, if you’re confidentiality, you don’t wanna cross that line in your vulnerability. Well, I’m gonna tell you something I shouldn’t tell you that, that, you know, cuz I just need to know…

Joe:
That’s gossip. That’s not vulnerability, that’s gossip. Right?

Suzanne:
Or that’s, that’s disingenuous. You, you’ve, yeah. You’ve given that confidence from your leaders and you’re sharing something you shouldn’t, or the other trap that leaders fall into is, well, they said is then that victim of blaming the customer or blaming the executive team or blaming somebody else for what’s going on instead of addressing the problem and finding those constructive ways of dealing with it. Yes. Together. So be careful that vulnerability doesn’t mean you go into victim mode. Yes.

Joe:
Yes. And, and be careful that vulnerability is not about insecurity, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> vulnerability is about acknowledging the very normal human ups and downs that we go through, the things that we wrestle with. If we’re constantly giving voice to our insecurity, we end up just making everybody else uncomfortable again and again and again. And it becomes a distraction. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and it, and it does erode that confidence that we talked about. I’m, I’m especially grateful that you brought up physicians. I work a lot with physicians. We both have been in the healthcare space for a long time. Yeah. And it reminded me of something that a physician told me years ago about that mindset. She said, when you go to med school, you have probably been the smartest person in the room for most of your life. And then you get there, and you’re told you better be right.

Joe:
And then you, you have to move through the rest of your professional adult career with those two things happening. And it is really difficult for people who have a high degree of aptitude and intelligence and who have been trained for years to be right mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to sacrifice the control that it takes to be vulnerable. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, and I’m reminded of a lot of the work that’s taking place in operating rooms and surgical centers these days mm-hmm. <Affirmative> to empower everybody in that room, regardless of station or title to call a pause if they see something of concern happening, or the steps that places like these are taking to move through checklists to make sure Yeah. That one person’s inability to be vulnerable, admit a mistake or to sacrifice some control. Control doesn’t lead to an even greater mistake. And so, I think thinking about vulnerability in that way as a, a temporary sacrificing of the control of your perception, your, your brand right. To others to show up as a more authentic person leads to greater human connection. It leads to more insight from the people on your team and it makes you a better leader.

Suzanne:
I agree. And I, I like what you’re saying there to, to, to give it some thought because this could be that very thing that maybe some of our listeners are thinking, oh, no way. I don’t believe it. It might be one of the hardest things to bust through. Yeah. To getting comfortable with the idea of giving up that control or showing a little bit of your weaker side. Yeah. If that’s how you see when it’s just the whole, you that you’re allowing people to see a little bit of. So maybe it’s worth just, just trying a little bit.

Joe:
Absolutely. And we’d love to hear from you as you attempt to a more vulnerable leader or really apply any of the advice and insight and strategy that we talk about here on our show. As we talked about at the beginning of the show. This is your show, and we invite your questions if you’d like to have us tackle a problem that you are facing or give you advice on a matter that is taking up your time and attention, you can email your question to us at bossbetternow@gmail.com. Send us your question. And we might put you on the show, not, not you, but your question on the show. And yes, we can change your name to protect you if other people in your enterprise listen to our show.

Suzanne:
So, we don’t wanna make you too vulnerable. That’s right,

Joe:
<Laugh>. That’s right. You don’t wanna be that vulnerable. One more time. That email address is bossbetternow@gmail.com. Send us your questions.

Joe:
And that brings us to the Camaraderie Question of the Week. Every week on our show, we give our listeners a question that you can use at meetings to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. Why? Because camaraderie on teams makes it easier for people to find things in common with each other. And when people find things in common with each other, especially things that have nothing to do with work, they access each other’s humanity. They become more forgiving and more collaborative partners and teammates. Camaraderie matters feels like a hashtag – #camaraderiematters. <Laugh>.

Joe:
So, our question this week, Suzanne, what’s the best feedback you received in the past year?

Suzanne:
Alright, I had to think about this one, but this was my favorite. I was surprised by it too. Oh. So maybe that was a pretty good one. Okay. So, I was leaving a workshop, I just did an hour long and it was a topic for women in leadership, but there were probably 60% representation in the audience were men. Hmm. But we were talking about women in leadership. So, I was done, I said, my goodbyes, thank you very much, da da da da da exit stage. Right. And someone comes running up to me, Suzanne, I’m like, yeah, because I just wanted to tell you, you’re a badass. <Laugh>.

Joe:
Was this a he or a she?

Suzanne:
It was a he.

Joe:
Okay.

Suzanne:
He said, just the things you have to say and your experience and what you’ve done and what you bring to the table. I’m like, I’m not sure. I was putting up there as what a, a goal for me okay. To be called that, but I was called that, and I loved it.

Joe:
Nice. 

Suzanne:
Very grateful for that. And the fact that he kind of chased me down to tell me that. Yeah. I wonder how long he’d come up with that

Joe:
<Laugh>. Well, and it’s so, it’s so nice that he elaborated, right? Because some people would run up and be like, you’re a badass. And then they turn and go like, okay, now it’s time for lunch. But <laugh>, because I would’ve been left wondering, well, what do you mean by that? Well, what did I do?

Suzanne:
I went, oh, thank you. Why <laugh>? Right. Because what, what connotates that in your mind and what NICUs just your experiences, what you’ve done and what you, what you teach others. I’m like, that is awesome. So right. That was, that was wonderful.

Joe:
I hope somebody calls me a badass sometime I’ll be like, yeah know, I didn’t know I got a degree in music. I wanted

Suzanne:
Music that

Joe:
Sick. Yeah. Badass <laugh>

Suzanne:
Way up there. I’m sure there was some good constructive feedback that I had received over the year, but I have a tendency to, you know, honor that then, then I don’t remember it anymore. Let’s hope I adjusted, but I’m not gonna remember that.

Joe:
Yes. I thought you were gonna tell me a story where you gave a, speech, or a workshop. I think you said it was a workshop and somebody came up to you afterward and, and, and started with that dreaded phrase, hey, can I give you some feedback? Which by the way, world don’t ever do that to a speaker or trainer right after they finished. Right. They just spent weeks preparing and they went on stage, and they gave you all they’ve got. And no, they don’t want your feedback at that moment. Unless it is complete validation app praise for everything that they’ve just done, just hold onto it for a better time. I thought that’s where you were going. I’m glad it didn’t end that way for you.

Suzanne:
No. Cuz you, you are just a tiny bit vulnerable when you’re Oh. When you’ve just put it out there and you’re like, I’m leaving, I’m outta here. I need to decompress and that Yeah. Can I give you some feedback?

Joe:
Oh, right. Because if it’s anything corrective, one of two things is going to happen. Right. If you feel like it went really well, you are the balloon buster. Right. <laugh>, you’re, you’re pop, you’re deflating that person in the moment. Yep.

Suzanne:
Yep.

Joe:
If you didn’t think it went well as the speaker or trainer, the hole that you’re in just gets way deeper. If somebody comes up and is like, yeah, listen man, that, that was a waste of my time. Right. <laugh>. So just, you know, fill out the evaluation. If you have to send an email the next day to give that feedback, fine. But don’t do it in the moment.

Suzanne:
We’ll, appreciate it for sure. Yes. Yeah. After the fact, <laugh>. All right. What was yours, Joe? What’d you got? 

Joe:
Best feedback I received in the past year, I was having a phone call with a speaker, friend, and colleague of mine who does a lot of media. She appears on cable news. She appears in a lot of noteworthy magazines and newspapers for comment or commentary around a variety of issues. And this is something that I wanted to try to do more of especially with the new book coming out. So, I reached out to her, and I said, hey can you help me understand like how to, how to get those opportunities a little bit more and, and whatnot? And so, we talked for a while, and she said something to me that has stuck with me for months. She said, Joe, you are waiting to be invited. You are waiting for somebody at these places to find you and to call you up and say, hey, Joe knows a little bit about this stuff.

Joe:
We should ask him to comment on this situation. Or let’s interview him about the great resignation. And he said that is never ever going to happen. You have to kick the door in and pound on the table and say, listen to me because I know about this. And if you don’t do that, your voice won’t be heard in this very noisy world that we’re in. And she’s so right. And I know that I, I come from an academic background, right, where if you have something to say, you publish it in a peer-reviewed journal with 42 citations, and you share it with the world, and then you wait for other people to decide whether it’s smart mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and that’s just not the way it works in media and PR and in magazines. And so, it was such a gift for her to say, Joe, you’re waiting to be invited. Knock it off. Nice. Nice. And so, in the past few months, we’ve started like pounding on the table a little bit more. And what does that look like? Well, for us it means pitching stories to media. It means responding to queries that reporters have about certain topics and issues and not being afraid to say what we think, even if it’s not what everybody will agree with. So, it’s been a real, real valuable piece of feedback for me.

Suzanne:
I love it. I love it when that feedback is so it’s almost advice, right? Yes. It was readily usable, reusable <laugh>, you’re gonna carry that with you,

Joe:
Right? Yeah. And she gave it to me in this really kind of bite-size, digestible you know, it wasn’t like a 45-minute speech. She was like, you’re waiting to be invited. You’ve gotta kick the door in and pound on the table.

Suzanne:
Yeah. Look out, mind your toes.

Joe:
And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
All right, folks, as you move into the new year, do you know that we have a program here at Joe Mull and Associates that will allow the leaders in your organization to get bite-sized micro-learning from me every single month? And we can do it for less than the cost of bringing me onsite for one hour? We founded the Boss Better Leadership Academy about a year and a half ago. It’s almost two years now, which I can’t even believe. And what we have learned is that it is possible to build better bosses in just 30 minutes a month. What we do is every month we create a microlearning course, which takes only 15 minutes or less to consume, and we send it out each month to all of our subscriber organizations. Managers are expected by their organizations to consume that 15 minutes of training content. And then another point during that same month, our subscriber organizations take 15 more minutes to discuss that content at a leadership meeting using a provided discussion guide. And so those two bite-sized moments, 15 minutes to consume the video and 15 minutes for a discussion are resulting in leadership transformation in the organizations that subscribe. It turns out you can develop the skills and knowledge and insight it takes to be a better boss with just a few minutes of ongoing leadership development. If you are interested in signing your organization up for this kind of ongoing learning and development support, all you have to do is send an email to hello@joemull.com and we can send you more information about the Boss Better Leadership Academy. It’s like Netflix, but for bosses and with fewer period dramas.

Joe:
All right. That brings us to one of my favorite segments, Suzanne. One that we haven’t done in a while. We call it Stop It,

Joe:
Stop Omitting or misrepresenting salary on job postings. Folks, I can’t even believe this is still a thing. I’ve been running my own business for 10 years, so it’s been a long time since I’ve applied for a job, but apparently, this is still a thing. I remember back in the day when you would see a job posting and you would be interested maybe potentially in applying for that job. And you would scroll to the bottom, and you would either see no salary information, salary commensurate with experience, or you would see a salary range between $14 an hour and $48 an hour. So where am I coming in at? And if you’ve ever applied for that job and you’ve gotten the phone interview and then you’ve gotten the in-person interview after sending in your resume and sending in a cover letter and still filling out the giant online application where I have to retype all the information that is already typed on my resume, you go through that whole process and then they tell you, well, Joe, we’re interested in you and I need to understand your salary expectations cuz we’re hiring in for this role at $15.25 an hour. Even though the range on the posting said 14 to 38, we are living in a place and at a time right now where candidates for your jobs are no longer willing to part with the time and effort it takes to move through your selection process without knowing whether or not that job is a good financial fit for them. Also, let’s recognize that when we avoid putting the salary on a job posting, we’re sending a signal to candidates that salary is not a differentiator here. Because if it was, you would brag about it. If you had highly competitive market salaries, you would trumpet that from the rooftops, wouldn’t you, on your job postings? But we don’t do that when I see no salary posted, it’s a message that we probably don’t pay very well. When we put ranges in there, we’re sending a message that what we’re most interested in is securing a new hire at the lowest possible wage through negotiation.

Joe:
And if we can keep it low, we’re gonna keep it low. What would happen if you just said the salary is blank? And yes, I know in some organizations you need to account for degrees and experience, et cetera, but you could say the salary is blank, period. This is what we’re bringing someone in at. And then if they bring you more than you expect, you could surprise them with a higher salary. That is how you find and keep devoted employees in this new age of work. At another level though, when we fail to put salary information on a job description, it singles signals a lack of consideration for the human being behind the application. If my early interactions with your company leave me feeling as though you don’t respect my time or my need to assess financial fit, what other kinds of dehumanizing experiences await me if I come to work there?

Joe:
I don’t know if you know this, but where there are a couple of states in the union here in the US that have started passing what are called pay transparency laws. This is already happening in California and New York where organizations are being required to be upfront about salary. This is in part because we are more than 40 years behind wage growth and there are negative impacts on the economy when companies continue to work to suppress wages. So, for all the reasons that I just listed and because this may be coming to a state near you soon, stop it, stop omitting or misrepresenting salary on job postings. Haven’t done one of those in a little while.

Suzanne:
Hmm. I I’ve not heard that music before.

Joe:
Is that our first “Stop It” since you joined the show?

Suzanne:
Yes, I believe so. I

Joe:
Get a little ranty sometimes about some things, and that’s just a, that’s just a little, little segment, a little bit that we do yep. Around, you know, rant-iness that I try to do every once in a while. It’s a little fun for me, gets my anger out, you know, in a healthy way. Yeah. So where are you, where do you stand on this, my friend? I saw you nodding, and I saw you taking notes. So have at it, where do you, where do you stand?

Suzanne:
Yes. Well, I stand for transparency. Yes. Let’s put it that way. So, I also find there are different ways or different places in the process that it might benefit. You know, I’ve sat with organizations who right or wrong, right? We can argue that in another show cannot leave with salaries as a differentiating factor, right? Yeah. We are not going to be a competitive salary. Yeah. So, if they had if they put that out there, then they might miss applicants that maybe they could have sold into the job. Because you’re still trying to find the best possible talent given the budget you have. Yeah. Not to say the budget doesn’t need work, but that is the reality of some of these situations. Okay. So, there’s that. The other thing that comes to mind is the HR or the teams that don’t have, they haven’t matured enough or they’re in growth mode, or they probably haven’t honestly given the right amount of attention to make sure that they have equal pay bans, the right structure, the right transparency inside.

Suzanne:
Because if you put it on the outside and people didn’t know that on the inside, you have to deal with your, your, you know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in innards first before you go outside with everything. Yeah. Right. I think a shorter, a smaller range, a little more indication of is, is this, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen, you know, mid to upper thirties or yeah. Low six figures at least something. And then what I think the, a great opportunity that seems missed in the article here and examples you’ve given is that recruiter, that recruiter doesn’t wanna waste their time either. Yes. So that should, that should very much be vetted at the beginning of the process. I’ve applied, we’re gonna have a conversation I need as the applicant to be prepared to say how much I want, what I’m looking for and why. And then that recruiter needs to know whether to take me forward or not take me forward based on that information.

Suzanne:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and then, you know, so I’ve been on the inside where we have salary view, like we’re about to make it off to this person, it’s over the, it’s over the budget, or it’s over what we thought it would be. Then you make a business decision based on the credential or the proven track record or whether whatever attributes about that candidate if we want to invest in them. But then you also have to look at the impact of what it does to your current employee base. Have you now just taken a project manager and you’re paying them 25% more than any other project manager and what’s the impact? They’re no, they’re not supposed to talk about salary, but transparency’s gonna mm-hmm. <Affirmative> again, you’re gonna, you’re gonna start expecting that internally. So, there’s Yes. Transparency should be there and HR leaders, executives need to find a way to build that into the systems internally and externally and make sure that they’re, they are paying people fair Yeah. Fairly right. If you’ve got something to hide, fix that. Yeah. And then you don’t have to worry about transparency too much.

Joe:
I agree with almost every single thing you say. Almost. Almost. Okay. Right. I very much am aware of, so, so let me say this, I will absolutely take a range over nothing, every single time. And, and you’re right, we have to narrow the ranges. People will put the like career range for the job you know, as defined by the, the HR position alignment that they have in the organization or, or the … you know, the position ranges, but that’s not the hiring range. And the hiring manager and the recruiter know what the hiring range is. Mm-Hmm. So that’s what should go on it. Mm-Hmm. So, absolutely, I’m with you on that. I am very aware that four places who believe they can’t pay more or for whatever reason, don’t have the budget to offer more competitive wages, that it is an, it is an intentional choice to not list salary.

Joe:
And that, and what we’re trying to do then is win that person over with our people and our culture and all the other warm and fuzzies that we’re gonna deploy to people when they come through the interview process. And I have to tell you, this is probably an inelegant analogy, but it feels a lot to me. Like the person who joins the dating site knows they’re not very good-looking. So, they don’t put a picture up or they put somebody else’s picture up and says, I’m gonna win over this, you know, a win over a partner on personality. And at the end of the day, it feels like trickery, and I know it’s not necessarily intended that way, but not listing salary when you know you’re not paying enough for people to really pay attention and then hoping you can just get them through the door and make them fall in love. It feels really dishonest to me at a time when everything costs more, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> put that time and effort into bumping the number and just be upfront about it because as we’ve talked about on this show, it’s not all about money for people, right. It is about culture.

Suzanne:
Right. So, if you’re not leading with salary as a competitive advantage Yep. Then still be transparent about it.

Joe:
Thank you.

Suzanne:
Yes. Right? So, what I’m saying is maybe you get an applicant, maybe you didn’t advertise it, you advertise the range. You still, that first call, that screening call is so pivotal. Pivotal. Yes. And I’m not advocating we’re, we’re, you know, pulling the wool over anyone’s eyes, but when there’s non-fuzzy benefits, Joe, like a benefit, you know, bonus that pays out, has paid out 110% over the last five years. Yep. Or 401k that matches more than anybody. You know mm-hmm. <Affirmative> in the industry, you might have some differentiators that just salary alone Yep. Is not going to show up. And so, you might not get even get ’em in the door. I agree. Not the fluff, not the free lunches, not, you know everyone’s so nice here. Those aren’t the things, but if you’ve got tangible benefit packages, and many of my clients are being very creative in their benefits packages. Yep. right. If they’re, look, they might, they’re doing all the cart packages now, whether it, so if it’s, you don’t need these health benefits, but you want this pet care. So, there are some creative ways. Yeah. Now, does that makeup for a $10,000 difference in a pay range? No, but if it’s

Joe:
For some it does.

Suzanne:
If you’re splitting hairs. Well, I meant in, you know, if my competitor pays $10,000 more is what I’m saying Yeah. Range.

Joe:
And I am saying the same thing. Yeah. I think it does. Yeah. And I, I think you put it all on there. I think you put the free lunches on there and you know, you put the things on there that some people might see as fluff, but other might see as really valuable. So, we talked about this I think recently on the show. Did we talk about the job posting that I put up where the HR consultant advised us to take away everything except the duties and the salary, right? Yeah. And everything else was the differentiator. Yes. We talked about a culture of manageable workloads. We talked about making time to talk about musical theater and get Mexican takeout during meetings. Like we talked about some of that cultural stuff that was in there while also listing the salary. And so, I’m of a mind, put it all in there if you know you’re not competitive with salary, do the work behind the scenes to try to move that number as much as you can, but be upfront about it. Have enough respect for the person on the other end of that to not try to lure them into your process and waste their time. If there is no human way possible for them to earn $15 an hour or $22 an hour doing what they do. But for the folks who can make it possible, they’re gonna appreciate the transparency and they might be attracted to all that other stuff that we just talked about. I think it goes; I think everything goes on there.

Suzanne:
Okay. Good. <Laugh>, <laugh>, you sometimes their hiring managers don’t know. They don’t know That’s true. The salary, they don’t know the range because that’s not how that organization functions. So yeah, that’s where we, there, there might be just a lot of work has to be done on the inside first before that transparency can go public. But it’s, I

Joe:
Have a book we can send them.

Suzanne:
An investment… I bet you do.

Joe:
<Laugh>, just Google Employalty E M P L O Y A L T Y or my name Joe Mull on Amazon are Barnes and Noble. And you can pre-order Employalty where there’s a whole chapter on generous wages and they role that they play in finding and keeping devoted employees. I wasn’t planning a shameless plug for the book at the end of this episode, but it happened organically. So that doesn’t count against me, does it?

Suzanne:
Not at all. Not at all.

Joe:
All right friends, that’s our show this week. If you liked what you heard, please share this show on your social media. Let others know that, hey, I’ve happened upon this podcast that I kind of quite like, it’s called Boss Better Now. Share this episode or any other episode that you like on your favorite platform on LinkedIn, on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, or any other place where you’re hanging out online. We always appreciate it. And spreading the word helps us fulfill our mission of filling workplaces with better bosses. Thanks for being here. We’ll see you next time.

Suzanne:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.