105. Taking Over a Scarred Team + About Transfer Trust

Transcript – Episode 105: Taking Over a Scarred Team + About Transfer Trust

Joe:
How do you get off on the right foot with a team that’s been done wrong and is not likely to trust? And what if the prior boss who caused some of these issues was still going to be around? We’re unpacking it all now, on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. The show is sponsored by Joe Mull & Associates. Now here’s your host, speaker, and author, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Welcome back, BossHeroes. We are thrilled that you are joining us for another dose of humor, advice, and encouragement for bosses everywhere. In case you didn’t know, in addition to listening to our show on your favorite podcast platform like Apple or Google or Spotify, et cetera, did you also know that you could watch our show on the Boss Better YouTube channel? Or you can simply say, Hey, A-L-E-X-A play Boss Better Now with Joe Mull, and she will. There are a variety of ways to listen to us, but however you are listening to us, we are thrilled to have you here. Please welcome back to the show, my co-host, HR advisor, and executive coach, Suzanne Malausky. What’s new, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
Hey, Joe. I think the time of year makes me feel like everything’s new. It’s mid-April and my theory that spring was going to win out actually came to fruition.

Joe:
Yes, it’s sort of nice to see the sun again after a while, isn’t it? 

Suzanne:
Yes, for sure. Some indication it’s gonna stick around. We’re gonna get some rain, but it’s, it’s gonna win out.

Joe:
Yeah, we’re both in that part of the country where you get teased a little bit in March with a couple of nice days and you’re like, yes, finally I’m ready. And then you remember that? No, they’re still April, which is like this evil temptress that gives you a sunny day, followed by flurries and you realize it’s, it’s really not gonna be here. Spring is not gonna be here until May, but we’re getting closer.

Suzanne:
Yes, we are. I’m super excited.

Joe:
Well, we have for the top of the show today a question, and so we are gonna start with mail time. I got an email from Emily and as I read through the email, I thought, boy, it’s a great situation, but this email is too long for the show. I gotta figure out how to condense this. And then I sat down to try to tighten up this question and I realized that every time I tried to edit it, I was losing context for the circumstances that she is in. So, I’ve decided to read the whole email. I think that a lot of our listeners are going to hear in Emily’s situation one or several challenges that they themselves have faced over time. So, this is the email I got from Emily about taking over a scarred team. Hi, Joe. I just wanna say how much I love your podcast. I’ve been listening from the beginning, and it has become a vital part of my Monday morning commute. My team will be facing a big transition soon, and I could use all the advice I can get since none of this has been announced yet. And because I’ve recommended your podcast to several on my team, I’m trying to speak generally. Let’s start by calling my current team, Team One, and our sister team in the same department, Team Two. The director over Team Two has been struggling with her team and her customers for quite some time, and my boss has made the difficult decision to remove her from her position and move Team Two under my leadership. In addition to Team One, I’ve been working through a change in communication plan, but I see so much potential for missteps that I’m not sure how to proceed. I will be the fifth director over team two in just two years. Team Two has trouble trusting their current director and vice versa.

Joe:
So, any advice you can offer in building trust with a team that is skeptical would be much appreciated. Team Two is much more emotionally driven than Team One, so I’m conscious that my approach will need to be a bit different than usual and that my actions will have lasting consequences. There are also currently no managers on Team Two. They’ve all either resigned or been asked to step down because of their current leadership. So, there is no management layer between the director and individual contributors to ease the burden of this transition. To make matters more complicated, our department has also been working on a project where we will be adjusting position titles, pay grades, and job descriptions for everyone in our department. This project has already proven to create a lot of anxiety for several people on the team, and we’ll be rolling out these new positions at the same time as this org chart change.

Joe:
My questions: How do I maintain my level of care and leadership for Team One while managing multiple major changes for Team Two? In your opinion, given the volatile position of team two, how do I guide them through these changes in a way that will build trust and create a solid foundation for our future working relationship? And how do I maintain or possibly rebuild a working relationship with the current director of team two who will likely remain on the team in another position? Please note she will not be reporting to me. Thank you so much for your advice, not just today, but every week, Emily.

Joe:
All right, Suzanne. Lots going on there. Let me kick it over to you to start. How can we help Emily?

Suzanne:
Well Emily, thank you for being a fan and for providing this with, you know, a lot here that can be unpacked. So, appreciate your willingness to kind of put this out there. And like Joe said there, I think there’s a lot of lessons and things we can take a look at that all of us as leaders could explore for our betterment. So, it is very complicated this, these poor teams, right? They’ve been through a lot, a lot of change, a lot of stress, I’m sure a lot at stake. And one, one couple things come to mind, but I, I think this whole notion of change fatigue is something to keep in mind. Maybe you already are, but just, you know, people accept change in different ways and different paces and for their own reasons, not anyone else’s. So, the, the first thing I, I think is most important here, and I think you’re on that path, is to make sure you are kind of putting yourself in the seats of everybody else. Members of Team One, members of Team Two, the director that’s leaving your boss, the organization, and sit there and, you know, sit through the perspectives they may have and thoughts they may have. Not to intimidate you, <laugh> not to make it more complicated, but so that when you have conversations and you’re communicating and putting your plan together, you demonstrate empathy and understanding for others. I think that’s most important. The other thing that came to mind initially, and, and Joe, we, you know, there’s so many paths we could go here. Yes. But the other thing I’ll share at this point is when you’re putting a communications plan together, what I do, and I advise leaders that I coach to do, is go clear up to the line of what you can disclose. Meaning, you know, where the line is of what’s confidential or what’s appropriate to share, but I want you to be willing to go clear up to that line and communicate as many details, deadlines, and expectations as you possibly can because what people need is information. One of the big needs people have in order to change and get comfortable with change is, is, is information. Because they may be looking at it from an emotional state, they may be looking at it from a practical state. They may be looking at it from a historical state, what we’ve done before, or from a place of hope. So, any information you can provide them, which is with, with as much consistency and thoroughness is gonna get you far. And that’s whether you’re having a meeting with team one or team two or individuals, share with them what you can share with them, where the gaps are, these are things I don’t know, or I can’t share with you. And share with them your angst or your feelings a little bit, not to the point of complaining or leaning on them. Just say, this is uncomfortable for me too, or this is what I’m hopeful for, or this is what scares me a little bit about going through this change. So, I think it’s sitting in the seat of those who are changing and then finding out how far you can go with as much information you can share as possible.

Joe:
Great, great, great advice. I already know Emily’s gonna be hitting rewind on this podcast and going back and listening to everything you just said a few times in a row because it’s important that we do sit in those seats and think about what are the pain points these people are experiencing and what are their, what are their fears? What are their worries and what can I do to meet them where they are? I really appreciate how Emily acknowledges that she knows she’s going to have to flex her style to adapt to how to lead this team of people. So already she, it feels like she’s already halfway there just in thinking about that piece that, hey, I know I’m gonna have to lead differently, show up differently. So, credit to you. I think I also really want to acknowledge and appreciate the empathy that she has for this other team and all that they’ve been through. And I love how she’s able to acknowledge that if this team doesn’t trust her at first or is difficult to navigate that, that’s not about her. Right? That’s, she’s not taking that personally. She knows that she’s gonna pay for the sins of everybody who has come before. And so, you know, give yourself some grace and some space around that too, Emily. That even at times when it doesn’t feel like maybe you’re getting through or if people aren’t responding to you here again, you’re paying for the sins of others who have come before. And so just continue to give it time. Now, with that said, I do think there are some specific kinds of communication and some specific kinds of interaction that are gonna be really helpful. And I wanna anchor my advice to you, Emily, in one of the mantras that I feel like I repeat on this show a lot.

Joe:
And that is honesty. Honesty and transparency. I think the truth works pretty damn well most of the time. In fact, you have really outlined in this email, both the heart that you have behind your approach with fem and the mind that you have for what you’re gonna have to do to, to be of service to them. And so, I think early on, naming what you’ve described here as an obstacle to this team is actually a really powerful way to build trust. And what I mean by that is saying, hey, listen, I know that you’ve all been through it. I know you have had a parade of supervisors come through here. I know that maybe just when you start to trust somebody, they leave or they get pushed out, or they violate that trust in a way that makes it hard to repair.

Joe:
So, I know and understand that I’m just the next person in a long line of persons that have been placed in front of you and asked to, to be in this accountability role. And so, I, I see you and I understand that that’s what you’ve been through. Let me tell you what I can and can’t do for you, and then just tell them, right? I can be a resource, I can show up. I’m here to listen, I’m here to serve, I’m here to support. I can’t be something I’m not, here’s what you can expect from me. There’s a just kind of level setting of expectations I think that you can bring. And just by naming out loud what they’ve been through, I think you start to crack the door open a little bit for that trust. And I think that those kinds of conversations are gonna have to happen repeatedly.

Joe:
So, I think making time for group touches is really important. And we’ve all heard about management by walking around, right? So, it’s not just calling meetings and sharing thoughts or ideas or trying to mine them for their insights. It’s just making time to be in their presence, if possible, to be in their company. You didn’t say this was a remote environment, so I’m assuming you’re in the building together, or you can maybe travel from location to location. And so just getting out and being visible and having conversations, even if they don’t seem like meaningful conversations, even if you’re just walking around and asking people about their kids and their weekends, you know, that that starts to, to go a long way to engendering trust On top of that, I think you’re gonna have to make some time for one-on-one touches too.

Joe:
You’re probably gonna be able to figure out pretty quickly who the most influential members of that team are. And so I would work to try to touch base with everyone, but when you see who the legacy employees are or those folks that, that maybe have the most sway within the group, maybe you can find a way to connect with them and, and you do it under the guise of, Hey, what do they need that they’re not telling me about? Or, or how can we really reduce the burden of all this change that people are going through? Having those conversations one-on-one with members of the team can go a long way too. Right, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
Absolutely. I think they — they want time and valuable and constructive attention at this point. They want to almost like a sniff test, who is this woman? Yes. You know, maybe they know of you or your reputation from working on the other team, but what does she really mean to us? Who is she? So that, that investing your time in small groups or one-on-one are great. I think asking great questions. So, you get some data to work with, whether it’s the, how you can get influencers to be part of the conversation to help others move along with them, or data to help you determine how to close some gaps to those who are most resistant or the most nervous or anxiety riddled with the change. I think for yourself, make sure I love what you said, Joe. Grace in time, no one expects you to come out of this with the perfect one-liner or the perfect plan. It’s being mindful of it, working your plan, but then giving it time. I love that you said that too. People don’t change on a dime. They don’t trust immediately. So, give them that consistent, open, honest dialogue that gives them every reason to be engaged with you and to follow you as, as you move through the change. But take care of yourself and find out what you need and get what you need to help lead this as well.

Joe:
And it feels like there’s a convergence of opportunity here where she acknowledges that there’s no additional layer of leadership on team two and the organization is reevaluating positions. And so maybe there’s a moment where Emily, you can advocate to name someone on team two as a frontline manager who acts as a go-between, between you and them. And who can take on some of the responsibility for managing a lot of the change with this group. And especially if it’s somebody who is trusted from within the group and has a legacy within the group that could ease the burden here too. So that might be a conversation worth having. You asked also about team one, right? And about how do I given you know, the circumstances that I’m gonna be, you know, needed by Team Two so much, how do I maintain my level of care and leadership for Team One?

Joe:
You know, the first thing is by being explicit with them about what’s going on. And I think you can do this in the form of some praise and in the form of a compliment, which is that they need me more than you do right now. You know, in a lot of ways you’re a more well-oiled machine than they are because they’ve had to deal with all of this chaos and change over here that we haven’t had to have. And so, I just want to prepare you that I am probably going to need to disproportionately split my time a little bit more with them than with you. That is not, please do not take that as a commentary on how important you are. It’s actually a compliment to how proficient you are or how, how much I trust you and I know that I can rely on you to operate without me needing to be there to look over your shoulder and then say that that’s — here’s what this doesn’t mean, though. It doesn’t mean I’m not available to you. It doesn’t mean I’m not gonna be around. It’s just if you don’t see me for some stretches, here’s why. Right. Between two patients, this one over here is sicker, so they’re gonna need a little bit more attention. So, I need to spend my time doing that. And I think people will respond to that and they’ll respect that.

Suzanne:
Absolutely. I think the, the other, the other thing I wrote down because you said there’s opportunities throughout here Yeah. To strengthen your team, to get to know another team, to build your might and strength and reputation as a leader. There’s a blessing in this in change. There is hope and growth and opportunity. And if you can, if you believe that, and then share that with everybody else –if you’ve got that optimism about the vision or the purpose or where this team will end up together in the next six months or a year, share that too. Make future part of, of what they’re grasping for. Cuz sometimes we get stuck in the uncomfort of what is, but if you can paint the picture and the vision for what’s to come, the other thing that I jotted down right after looking at this was assume professional intent.

Joe:
Hmm.

Suzanne:
One of my favorite pieces of advice is always assume positive intent. You know, people are trying to do the best they can, but I thought, no, assume professional intent here because even with people are upset, it’s usually coming from a place that they still want job security. They still want to provide the best customer service or put out the right product. So, assume positive or professional intent from your teams and just sit in a space with, I know they wanna do the right thing. I know they; they want to put forth the effort to make this all work in the long run.

Joe:
Yeah. You know, and the, the question too that, that is woven through all of this situation is that there’s a whole bunch of other change coming, right? Yeah. That there’s an org chart reworking, there’s position changes, there’s maybe salary changes. You start to get into people feeling like their financial security is in jeopardy. As soon as you, you, you pull people’s sort of stability out underneath them. I’m on unsure footing. And that really creates a lot of angst for folks. And so, I think in terms of the disclosures that Suzanne advised you to think about upfront, one of those is, hey, there’s, there’s gonna be some, some difficulty ahead around this. Let’s not pretend that this is gonna be smooth sailing. Now that doesn’t mean that we catastrophize it. We just name that, hey, there’s gonna be a little bit of difficulty ahead. I remember when my sister and her husband bought their first house, and they were asking me about the process, and I had bought I my second or third house at that point. And the advice that I gave them is plan for it to suck <laugh>. There are a lot of things about buying a house and selling cuz you’re buying to buy a house and you’re selling a house. And like it never goes smoothly. There’s all kinds of hiccups, whether it’s at the beginning of the sale or the inspection or the end of the sale or the financing. If you know they’re coming, and you can mentally prepare yourself. That not if, but when I experience frustration or uncertainty or anger or not enough information, I am gonna manage that. Right. If I know it’s coming, if it’s predictable, I can plan for it and I can respond better for it in the moment. And I think when we name that for our teams that hey, there’s some road bumps ahead, let’s be ready for it together, that actually helps soften the blow a little bit. Now I Yeah, go ahead.

Suzanne:
No, I was just saying I totally agree with that because people almost that anticipation of it and pre-gaming, if you will, to allow me to manage the emotions, I’m gonna feel because you’re allowed to feel what you feel. Yes. It — change is hard, and it can be emotional, but hey, we know it’s coming. Let’s, we’ve got the ways and the tools and the support to kind of push through that. I like that.

Joe:
Absolutely. Yay. Well, there’s one more piece of this in Emily’s situation that I wanted to make sure we spent a few minutes talking about. Okay. And that is that this current director, the person who’s being removed from their position, overseeing team two, sounds like they’re going to remain in that department. They’re not directly reporting to Emily, but they’re still gonna be there. What advice do we have Suzanne, for Emily around that?

Suzanne:
Well, if I go to my own advice and assume professional intent, then there’s a reason that they’re keeping her on the team. So, I would or him or her? Him or her?

Joe:
Yeah.

Suzanne:
Him or her on the team. So, you know, really take stock of what they have to offer, what they do well, what expertise they bring. You know, it’s not all bad apparently, or they wouldn’t still be there. And then I, of course, my style would be, hey, can we go have some coffee and talk about this? Hmm. How can I support you in this transition? Is there anything I need to know about your team? Maybe is there anything, you know, that I have blinders on about that you can see from your perspective that might help me? I would just try to build that rapport and I would want people in some way or another to know that we are, we are treating each other professionally and building trust amongst ourselves as we go forward.

Joe:
Yep. You know, I don’t know that I have the same rosy outlook in a way about well, if there’s still gonna be there, there’s probably a reason because I’ve seen so many organizations, you’re nodding already, Suzanne, so you know what I’m gonna say. <Laugh> so many organizations who just didn’t have the courage to say, you’re done. You don’t, this is not gonna work. You don’t fit here anymore. It’s time to move on with your life’s work. It’s not here. Thank you for your service. And in some places, they just move a person aside to avoid hurt feelings or for whatever they, they, they’re afraid of that conflict or that difficulty.

Suzanne:
Oh yeah. I’m sure there’s a backstory here for sure.

Joe:
And that, and that could certainly be the case here. Yep. I’m not gonna lie, the, when I read this email and I got to the part and I went, oh wait, this director is still gonna be there. Oh no, that’s a bad scene. That’s complicated. That’s complicated. And in a lot of ways it makes, it makes Emily’s job harder, it makes team two’s job harder. So, if there is any way to revisit what the proximity of this person to this team will be, I think that’s gonna be important. If they’re still employed in the company or even in the department, that’s fine. Do they need to sit in the team? Can they be adjacent to the team? Cuz even that can make a big difference. And, and just to add on to what Suzanne said, a conversation with this person is going to be important not just to ask for advice and insight, but to try to be able to have a frank conversation where you’re able to look at this person and say, I know this can’t be easy for you.

 Joe:
And we have to work together to make it easy for both of us. So, what do you need from me? And ask and give this person the chance to answer that question, but then be able to articulate, here’s what I need too — from you. Can I count on you to be professional enough to redirect folks to me for anything that they might come to you for or to not, or to support me in my leadership? If you hear somebody making a remark about something that they don’t like, you know, not piling on, but saying, hey, if you don’t like how she’s doing it, go talk to her like that. That’s what you need to do. Can I count on you to be professional in that way and ask them to make that commitment?

Suzanne:
Absolutely. I, and be able to be clear with those things. I love that. I, I would play that back again if I were a listener too. Like, Ooh, what did Joe say I should ask and negotiate for? Because there might be boundaries that need to be set. I don’t know, like, and only Emily knows what that story is and what that relationship is. But if you can get it out there and get it on the table and talk it through I, that’s going to be better for everybody.

Joe:
Yeah. And for the record, I will say again, I do not like that this person is going to still be there. That’s just, listen, I’ve been through this a lot. It just usually doesn’t work. I will never say never, but it’s usually not a good idea. Emily, I thank you for taking the time to send your question and for the sophisticated level of the challenge that you’re dealing with and the thoughtfulness that you are bringing to that challenge. Kudos to you. You’re on the right track. You just keep doing what you’re doing. You’re going to, you’re gonna be pretty successful I think just based on what we saw there in that email.

Joe:
BossHeroes, if you have a question, you’d like to hear us pick apart and answer and unpack, just shoot it to us in an email to bossbetternow@gmail.com. That’s bossbetternow@gmail.com. And we may answer your question here on the show.

Joe:
By the way, speaking of answering questions, Suzanne, our listeners probably have figured out that this week is their last chance to enter into our contest to be a part of our first-ever live episode of Boss Better Now. That’s right — on Tuesday, April 25th, just a week or so away at 3:00 PM we are going to invite a handful of lucky listeners to join us for a Zoom recording of a full episode of this podcast. And as part of that experience, you’re gonna get to ask us questions. You’re gonna get to see how we put the show together from start to finish. You’ll get a glimpse behind the scenes, and you’ll get to be in the live studio, virtual studio audience. We are going to hold this event for 10 lucky listeners. And the way that you enter is by pre-ordering two copies of my new book Employalty. So just go out to Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever you order books online. Pre-Order two copies of the book, one for you and one for a reading partner. And then just send proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com. That is all you have to do. And you’ll be entered to win one of the 10 seats. We’re gonna pull our winners in just a couple of days.

Joe:
I’m excited about this. Suzanne, you?

Suzanne:
I am super excited about it, Joe. I think it’s a great idea. Can’t wait to see what we’re, what we get up to.

Joe:
All right, friends. And the last day to enter is midnight on Friday, April 22nd, US Eastern time zone. So go ahead and get that proof of purchase sent in.

Joe:
And that brings us to the Camaraderie Question of the Week. Bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. Every week we give you a question you can use at meetings to facilitate connection and build camaraderie.

Joe:
And Suzanne, this question today. Boy, there’s so many different ways you can answer this question. <Laugh>, there’s so many ways in which this could be fun. There are actually ways in which this could make people uncomfortable, I think in groups. So yes, you kind of gotta pick the right spot or the right circumstances under which to use this question. I don’t know, this is that this is like a “in the hallway” question.

Suzanne:
It might not be a universal question. You’d have to think it through. If you’ve got a, I’m thinking about the guy or gal that’s the over-discloser. You know, they might cross a boundary here that makes everybody uncomfortable. But with the right audience, I think it’s a pretty good question.

Joe:
Yes. So, here’s the question. Yes. What is something you are putting off that you know you should be doing? Suzanne, what’s your answer?

Suzanne:
Yeah, I, I kept it kind of in the neutral life maintenance category. I have two things though cuz why just have one? And the first one is I always, I have a secret, you know, deep, dark secret. I have a clothes management issue.

Joe:
A clothes management issue?

Suzanne:
Yes. I have probably too much clothing and a really big closet. And no matter what I do, there’s a pile here or this is just unorganized. When I put it all in there, it was all color-coded and by section and perfectly neat. And I just don’t take the time to go back in there and clean it out like I should and keep it organized. And there’ll be these, you know, moments where I can’t find that pair of leggings, which I just have to have because I’ve not cleaned it up. So, and then how can I tell my children to keep their room clean if my, if my closet’s a little messy? So

Joe:
That Oh, I see.

Suzanne:
Yeah. The double standard. The rest of my room is clean though, just so you know. And then the other thing I think so I do exercise on a regular basis, but I need to be putting more weight training into my routine.

Suzanne:
So, I put that off, and sooner or later you can’t keep putting that off you, you gotta do it right. So, yes. Yes. 

Joe:
So goodness, I have so many answers to this question. Several of them align with yours. 

Suzanne:
Okay, so I think you should take a right turn and do something completely different.

Joe:
Yeah, I’ve got, I’ve got one or two things coming. So yeah, the one, one of the first things I thought of was exercise, right? And it was really about the intensity of the exercise that I should be doing versus the I’ll just walk the dog. That’ll be fine. But like, the transformation that I would like, I know I probably not probably, I know I need to commit to a regular routine of some things that are more intense. So that’s one of the first things I thought of. Okay. I have had a little project in our upstairs bathroom that has been waiting for me. It’s probably been a year and a half, two years now. Like, like one of the tower racks broke off the wall and it needs replaced. And you know, like there’s just a couple little things like that that are all in that bathroom and it’s, it’s at a part of the house where nobody else goes into. Right? And you’re like, nobody’s gonna go in there, so I don’t need to worry about that <laugh>. But man, I think that it’s been like that longer than it was right at this point. Ah-Huh. So, I have a couple projects around the house like that. Yeah.

Joe:
And then the other thing that I thought of is I think there’s a chance I’m avoiding some uncomfortable conversations with my older son at 10 years old as a young man that he, that we need to have because, you know, now they, I am hearing rumors that, you know, on the bus some of these older boys are showing things on the iPad that are things we’re not necessarily big fans of 10-year-old boys seeing that are on the internet. And so, one of, one of his friend’s parents came to me and said, you know, they know what porn is now, right? And I was like, wait, what? And so, we had this whole conversation about things that are being passed around on the bus and I’m like, okay, yeah, I need to sit down and talk to Miles about some of this stuff soon. And so, I’m kind of trying to think about what does that conversation sound like and how do I approach it? And man, it’s not easy. And I think, cause I don’t know the path, right? I don’t know how I want it to go. Right? I’ve just kind of not dove into it yet.

Suzanne:
I understand. I understand why you would put that one off too, but yeah, it’s important. And the, you know, maybe even more important in the tile rod in the bathroom. I’m just saying…

Joe:
I think you’re probably right. Oh, hey, you wanted a right turn. You wanted something different. You did. Here you go.

Suzanne:
Yeah, I, I, I avoided that with my two older children and one of them told me that how do I say this? They wish I hadn’t avoided it or had done a better job. I’m like, Ugh. Well, thanks for telling me.

Joe:
Yeah. So, like, you gotta have the uncomfortable conversation with the kid and then the kid gives you feedback about how you did.

Suzanne:
<Laugh> No, they gave you feedback 10 years later. Oh, 15 years later. So, they’ll remember what you do or don’t do. Yeah, Joe…

Joe:
That’s a good point. Just saying, all right, I gotta get on that. I’ll report back at some point. Okay. And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
So, as we just demonstrated, that question can go a variety of directions in a group. And the degree to which the group is able to handle that question is gonna have a lot to do with trust. So, talk about a perfect segue to our last segment. Nice job on the show here. Thanks. I’m a pro — one of the things that I wanted to mention today is about a, a small idea that I encountered in one of the interviews for my book that it just, it keeps sticking with me as an interesting conversation point for leaders and as something that we don’t really talk about a lot as leaders. And it’s this idea of transfer trust.

Joe:
When I was writing Employalty and we created this framework for what are the experiences that employees need to have in order to turn their job into a destination workplace. And one of the factors we talk about is “Great Boss”, right? A boss is the single most influential factor in the employee experience. And one of the dimensions of being a great boss is trust, granting trust, and earning trust. And so, when I was writing the book, I reached out to a colleague of mine, a gentleman named David Horsager who runs the Trust Edge Leadership Institute. He’s written a couple of books about trust. He has used the word trust in a sentence more than any other human being on planet Earth. I guarantee it. And I was interviewing him about trust and he — I asked him, how do you build trust quickly, right? With this is something that Emily just asked us about how do I build trust quickly? And he rattled off a couple of ideas and then he said this, and I took it word for word from the book so I could give you exactly what he said.

Joe:
Here’s how he described it. One way that trust gets built quickly is through what we call transfer trust. If person A trusts person B, and person C trusts person A, but doesn’t know person B and A says that B is trustworthy, that amplifies deeper trust and quote, this trust transfer alone makes the case for every leader to work to build trusting relationships with as many individuals as possible in an organization. Because those people that the leader engages with will ultimately spread more trust in that leader among those, he or she interacts with that the leader doesn’t often meet. And so, Suzanne, we sometimes think that all of our work is about one-on-one in relationship building or to the people that we see when we’re at the front of the room. But it’s not always that way. There are, there are sort of tiers to the relationships that we have. I was first gonna use the analogy that trust spreads like a virus, but that didn’t feel like it was a healthy metaphor.

Suzanne:
No, no thanks.

Joe:
But <laugh>, but in a way it’s maybe the better metaphor is it’s like compounding interest, right? That when I create trust with one person Yeah, for sure. That one person then goes and compounds the trust that I can earn across that organization if I continue to do right by that person. So let me kick this over to you in terms of your thoughts and observations about transfer trust.

Suzanne:
Oh, I think it’s an interesting concept and it’s kind of, I did the blow my mind thing. I don’t know if you’re looking <laugh> because you know, we do think about how do I build trust with this person and, and I hope we all think of different people and we work towards that. And there’s so much written about trust, it’s a big deal when we extend it, when we trust somebody why we don’t. But the idea — and I couldn’t help with thinking is what do they say about you in the room when you’re not in the room? Right? Right. That association with that person. And probably why we ask for referrals all the time or we, Joe, have you heard of this person? Would you work with them? And we, we trust you, so we don’t know them so we’re going to lean on you a little bit. I think it also made me think of hiring people that I’ve watched leaders move from organization and organization and then kind of take their posse with them. Yep. Does it mean there isn’t anybody out there with the same or even better skillsets than someone you bring along? No, not at all. It means you trust these people. Yes. Right. And that’s the hardest thing to, to find and earn and maintain many times. And I thought that was interesting too. It made me think of that because it might be somebody else who sees you in that collective group of people they trust. Yeah. And might tap you on the shoulder for some opportunity or to build a relationship. So, I also, it is like a reputation building, isn’t it?

Joe:
Well, and it’s a two-way street, right? So, if I go to a new organization as a leader and then I hire some of my trusted direct reports, yes, I am getting the benefit of knowing that I trust them, their maybe their work ethic, their character, their talent, their competence. But I’m also bringing people into the organization that trust me and now I’m gonna benefit from some of that transfer trust when they start building relationships with others. And I have a shorter runway to the total amount of trust that I need to build across the order organization cuz I’ve already got some people in place where that is already present. So that, that’s certainly factors in. This actually makes me think back a little bit to the conversation we had about Emily and about how she can build trust quickly. If you think about her team, one that she’s been working with already for quite some time, it’s, it’s fairly likely that she has earned a significant amount of trust from those folks.

Joe:
So perhaps one thing that she does is she works to create some cross-functionality between the teams or sets up some kind of mentoring relationships or some partnerships between the two teams in the same department. Because when people from team two are, are on unsure footing or don’t necessarily want to grant this new leader trust because everything that they’ve been through, having another person at their level saying, oh no, no, Emily’s good people, she would never do that. Or she’s taken good care of us. You know, that’s a trust transfer and that could go a long way to helping her be successful. So really for anybody listening to this, I thought this was a really intriguing idea that came out in this whole deep dive chapter in the book about how you build trust, transfer trust matters. So, start thinking about that, where you work, and how you can take advantage of it. Suzanne, anything else to add?

Suzanne:
I don’t think so. I love it.

Joe:
All right friends. Well, that’s our show for this week. We’re so grateful that you join us each week for your regular advice of humor, encouragement, and advice, your regular dose of advice, humor, and encouragement from our show here, Boss Better Now. If you get value out of this episode or our show in general, we would so appreciate it if you would share our podcast with your network, post about it on social media with a link to the latest episode, tell other leaders in your network, at your organization, or in your circle about it. And help us continue fulfilling our mission to fill workplaces with better bosses.

Joe:
And by the way, don’t forget to enter to win a seat at our upcoming live recording of Boss. Better now, just pre-order two copies of Employalty send a proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com and you could win a seat. I hope to see you there.

Joe:
Thanks for listening and thanks for all that you do to take care of so many.

Suzanne:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.