32. The Productivity Myth + Other Duties as Assigned

Transcript -Episode 32: The Productivity Myth + Other Duties as Assigned

Joe:
There are myths we’ve built around being productive and getting things done that actually hinder us from both. Plus, how you should respond when an employee complains about those other duties as assigned. We’re getting into it now on Boss Better Now.

Alyssa:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. Please welcome speaker, author, and Delta Man, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Hello friends. Thank you once again, BossHeroes, for joining us on the show today. This broadcast is all about you; leaders who care about their people and strive daily to give them what they need to thrive. Please welcome my co-host, professional coach extraordinaire, Alyssa Mullet.

Alyssa:
That’s my official title by the way.

Joe:
And I have no idea how to spell extraordinaire, but yes, you can have that title.

Alyssa:
I’m putting it on my business cards. It’s already done

Joe:
The font is gonna have to get smaller. That’s a… That’s a long couple of words.

Alyssa:
They’re very creative nowadays. In Canva… you can do anything in there.

Joe:
That’s true. We’re big Canva fans here too. Absolutely.

Alyssa:
Awesome. Now explain to me, I don’t… Is this “Delta Man”, meaning like the airline or is there some other kind of like, is this like a fraternity thing? Like I, I don’t know.

Joe:
Oh, that’s fun.

Alyssa:
I’ll just admit my ignorance.

Joe:
No, that’s okay. Um, I’m referring to the airline.

Alyssa:
Oh, ok.

Joe:
I have sort of proudly referred to myself the last couple of years as a “Delta Man”. I am very partial to Delta Airlines when I fly. I’m a pretty loyal customer of theirs.

Alyssa:
Oh.

Joe:
Um, I just have different experiences on that airline versus almost everybody else.

Alyssa:
Really?

Joe:
There, there are two or three airlines that if I have to fly, I will reach for them. I’m … I’m uh, Delta’s #1, Jet Blue is pretty great most of the time. Uh, I’ve I’m usually happy to fly Southwest. Um, the airlines, I am not naming… I’m probably not naming them because I’ve had terrible experiences, but not, not, not one, right? Things happen when you travel. Of course.

Alyssa:
Right.

Joe:
But every time, like patterns of lateness and mechanical issues and just lower experiences around customer service and it is, and, and I, I am pretty plugged into the world of professional speakers and know a lot of people who travel and do the same kind of thing.

Alyssa:
Yeah.

Joe:
And that’s kind of a shared view.

Alyssa:
Ahhh.

Joe:
Most of my colleagues and peers, who do this kind of work,  are Delta SkyMiles loyalists like myself.

Alyssa:
Oh. So, then we will take it from an expert.

Joe:
Maybe we just went trolling for a sponsorship, right? Hey, Delta! Boss Better Now brought to you by Delta Airlines. No, that’s not true. It would be nice though if you’re listening.

Alyssa:
Hashtag.

Joe:
#deltaman

Alyssa:
Bring the money in. Bring it in.

Joe:
Oh, wouldn’t that be fun?

Alyssa:
That would be awesome.

Joe:
Well, let’s dive in today… Our first topic, um, which you really kind of beautifully, succinctly captured with just this title of The Productivity Myth. So, full disclosure for our BossHeroes listening, um, when Alyssa and I sort of curate the content for the show, she sends me ideas… I’ve got my ideas, and then we kind of sort through them and plug them into these segments. And, uh, recently Alyssa, you emailed and said, I would love to talk about how to dismantle and bravely call out the myths we’ve built, a lot of leaders have built, around being busy and getting things done. And I thought, man, what a great idea. So where would you like to start?

Alyssa:
Well, I think that there’s like this thing that spurred in me recently about, you know, a lot of times when I coach, um, and I know that you’ve had similar interactions, Joe, where people are expressing just the volume of, for instance, email, that they are responsible for, for the amount of hours, quantity of hours…

Joe:
Yeah.

Alyssa:
that the job demands. And over the course of the pandemic and working from home and all of these other remote type of circumstances we found ourselves in, the opportunity and the ability that we gave work to blend into our home life, our home time, um, its presence ever presence on our digital devices being continually available, uh, mentally and physically for work. It has just, I think, reached a tipping point of being consuming of us. And so, we become then this product of what we do, right? That’s our orientation to the world, uh… to ourselves becomes… What have I done? What did I do? What am I going to do?

Joe:
Hmmm.

Alyssa:
And for me personally, that is a dangerous, dangerous place to be in. It is a dangerous space for my mental health. It is a dangerous space for my body — physically because it elicits mega stress, which is absolutely horrible, continually, chronically, for your body. And the ability that we give the capacity of what we have available to be productive is always in the terms of volume and quantity.

Joe:
Hmmm.

Alyssa:
And that’s where I think we have to start dismantling that myth. Because productivity is not about volume and quantity. That is where I think we have this age-old thing of maybe it’s based upon like the manufacturing age, you know, the industrial revolution, where we were the number of widgets we made or you know, that kind of thing. But now it doesn’t have the same flow-through to email. It’s not, I can bang out a hundred emails and look how productive I am or look how many hours I worked in the last, you know, week. I got 80 hours in! Woohoo, me. You know, and that’s like a trophy or a badge that we tout around, right?

Joe:
Yes.

Alyssa:
That’s got to stop. We, as leaders have to start dismantling the heck out of the culture that we created that says it, you got to be a hero and work 90 hours a week.

Joe:
Uh-huh.

Alyssa:
And you got to have face time with each, and every person and you got to respond at 2:00 AM to an email. Wrong! This is going to kill our productivity. It will kill our spirits. And I feel that it is the crux of what kills our ability to truly be passionate and love the work that we do.

Joe:
Beautifully stated. And if I can add in… It’s killing our health.

Alyssa:
Yes, yes.

Joe:
It’s killing our health. As you know, we’re not exercising, we’re not getting as much time in rest and recovery. Uh, you know, it, it’s killing our health. I want to tell you that I just feel so seen right now, my friend. Because everything you just described, it’s like you just laid back in an easy chair right inside my head because I am so very guilty of so much of this. And what’s crazy about it is I’m also fully conscious of it. Even though I know that it’s a vicious cycle and that it does harm. I’m still… I still get consumed by it. I have days where I go into the day saying I’m going to accomplish these eight things and it’s already unrealistic. You know the expectation that I’m going to get all eight of those done in that day is absurd. But I go into the day believing that I can, and I can come out of that day, having gotten five of those things done. And then maybe on the fly, a client called me up and we ended up having a really fantastic 45-minute conversation on the phone. And I really helped them. Like they really, we had a really rich conversation, and they leave feeling like, man, that was great. And I… I got a lot of help. Um, and then I go home. And the first thing I say, when, when my wife or kids asks me, how was your day? I’ll probably say something like, Well I wasn’t as productive as I wish I had been.

Alyssa:
Uh-huh.

Joe:
And, you know, the…and I would probably eventually get to, you know, but I got to have this really great conversation and that’s, that’s great. But now I got to climb out of the hole. Right? Cause I still have eight other things that I was hoping to knock out tomorrow. But when I wake up in the morning, now it feels like 11.

Alyssa:
Yup.

Joe:
And you get stuck in these cycles. And so, we end up… I think a lot of leaders do this, they evaluate the failure or success of a day based on to-do list and productivity crossing off instead of the quality of the interactions that they’re having or what they learned or the difference they made in the lives of others. But then here’s where it gets really kind of sick… Is we then ding our own competence, right? We say I wasn’t able to be as productive… Yes, I, yes, I did all this quality work, and I helped all these people, but I’m not keeping up.

Alyssa:
Yup!

Joe:
And so that starts to make me feel incompetent or less competent. And I think it all comes back to one of the first things that you said, which is: in so many places, we have completely unreasonable expectations about what one person can accomplish in a job in a day.

Alyssa:
Yeah.

Joe:
How do we fix that?

Alyssa:
Well, first I want to, I have a few things,

Joe:
Give it to me.

Alyssa:
A few tactics and strategies, but I also want to point out and highlight what you just said about the fact that we’re not giving ourselves credit for the depth, the quality of our interactions. For me, it’s the value that you were able to bring to the table, to that person, how much you served that day. When we are able to make the intangible tangible and quantify that for ourselves in one way or another, I think that that’s strategy number one. It’s figuring out a way to give yourself credit, whether it’s a freaking post-it note where you wrote down A+ for every time you had more than a hello with one of your direct reports, a conversation of value, something that meant something to someone. Ummm…

Joe:
Well, this is the very definition of a gratitude journal. It’s why for now in recent years, so many people are being encouraged to do it because it is the kind of cure for this cyclical, uh, productivity kind of shallow, simple task to-do list, uh, stuff that we get consumed by. And, and, you know, maybe you write down something that you’re grateful for that happened today, or that you did today, or, or you just point to something that had meaning beyond the to-do list. But you’re absolutely right.

Alyssa:
The, uh, you know, this reminds me of, uh, you know, a couple of months back Joe, we did that, um, virtual summit that had to deal with BossBeliefs, right.

Joe:
Right.

Alyssa:
And having folks, um, name their BossBeliefs. And that was a really powerful exercise. And it was difficult at first to get people to name those, but they know whenever they do it.

Joe:
Right.

Alyssa:
They had this feeling. Right? It gave them a feeling. So that’s, that’s what we’re going to, that’s what you want to aim for is you have the feeling of what it is that you did that was like, oh yeah, that felt good. Name that feeling because that’s part of your value system. That’s, what’s operating, uh, for you at a level of authenticity in the workplace that brings meaning and value to you being there. So, write that down, make that tangible for yourself.

Joe:
And it’s…we have to do for ourselves, the things that we know we need to do for our personnel. We need to constantly ask our personnel what energizes you about your work? Tell me a story about something that you did recently that made you really proud, uh… of your capabilities or to work here or how you made a difference in the lives of others. We have to draw that out of ourselves as well, with the same kinds of thoughtful, intentional questions.

Alyssa:
Yeah. 2nd strategy that I have for trying to dismantle, uh, these myths of productivity.

Joe:
You numbered them! That’s like… You showed up with like a bullet list. I’m just like virtual high five, my friend!

Alyssa:
Well, I didn’t really. I just literally, like, it’s something that’s, um, a top of mind, because I also have to tell you that I, this is something that’s, you know, important for me in that as a solopreneur, you know, I determine my own productivity. Right?

Joe:
Yeah.

Alyssa:
Which is, as you know, that can be a real beast. Right? But I… This is top of mind. It’s something that I’m focusing on, and I was just listening to this podcast… um, Mindful Productivity Podcast is the name, uh, that wonderfully speaks about this kind of thing. Unconventional ways to kind of approach this topic of, of productivity. In any case, my second strategy for myself, um, is single-tasking.

Joe:
Yes!

Alyssa:
You know, and it seems simple, but we don’t do it. We are constantly, you know, oh, writing back that email while listening to this over here while trying to do three other things, and we’re writing our to-do lists about the things that we’re still got to do when we’re doing that and checking this off and trying to do that over here. Slow down. Single task. I think that’s one of the biggest gifts that I’ve been able to give myself is to just have this thought pattern of: this is enough. This is what my brain needs to do and concentrate on it. And I don’t need to try to do all of these other things while doing this. Uh, I can. I know that I can. I don’t need to prove it continually by multitasking, by demanding that of myself. Right? The other thing, and I think, um, this is my point with, uh, with a podcast, the Mindful Productivity Podcast that Sarah puts out is that you get to pay attention to your own energy levels. You know, what brings you energy. What completely drains you about your work. What is it about you? If you start your day, every day, by going into the vortex of email and swimming through that and thinking that you can only be productive once you have your entire inbox done, or you have at least 50 things checked and you know, and there are no longer bold on the inbox, is that bringing you energy or is it sucking you dry first thing? Design strategies that bring you energy. And when you need to take care of tasks that will deplete that energy. You’re, you know, nobody’s sitting over your shoulder as a leader in this stage of the game,

Joe:
Right!

Alyssa:
No one should be sitting over your shoulder saying, no, you must do this now.

Joe:
Yes.

Alyssa:
You must do this now. Right? Pay attention to your energy levels. And what brings you the energy and what sucks it dry from you. And then, listen! Listen to yourself and design your workflows around it.

Joe:
And experiment, right? You have to do; you’re going to have trial and error for this. The… the idea of single-tasking, I, you know, the opposite of which is multitasking, right? And the definition of which is doing several things at once badly. Um, and I think what people and what ends up happening to people a lot is unintentional multitasking. And maybe it’s a byproduct of technology or, or just being pulled in multiple directions. But, you know, if you’re sitting in your office and your email platform is just open all day and you get the ding and then you move from the document over to the email and then you reply. And then when you’re replying, another email comes in and then somebody pops into your office and says, hey, can we, and now we’re doing the thing that we know we shouldn’t be doing. And so, the only way around unintentional multitasking is intentional single-tasking, and we only intentionally single task when we create the kinds of boundaries and awareness that you’re talking about. You know, I know I noticed my energy levels in certain parts of the day, my sharpness for more creative stuff. If I have to write a portion of a new keynote or a webinar or start planning content for the podcast I’m done in the afternoon. That is not, I’m tapped out up here.

Alyssa:
Yeah.

Joe:
And so, I… I am specific and intentional about putting time in my calendar to do that in the mornings, cause I’m sharper for it, but I also need to close the email client and I need to close my door. And I do put my phone on, do not disturb. And I need to put my headphones in and put my like white noise app on so that I can escape into just doing this single thing well. Because if I don’t do it well right now for an hour, it’s going to take me three later when I’ve had all the dings and the bells and the interruptions.

Alyssa:
Yeah. And the … you’ve traded now you’ve made, unconsciously or consciously, depending upon where you’re at, right. That trade-off, that exchange of this is the value of my time and how I value my time.

Joe:
And that goes the other way too because here’s something else I started doing that has really made a difference for me. I have told myself; you get this amount of time to finish that.

Alyssa:
Hmmm.

Joe:
You know, I need to go and write the next BossBetter email newsletter. And I know that I want to write about these three things and then pull in this other tool and resource, and I will kind of take however long it takes, but then I’m in there. And I’m like, well, I want to create an interesting graphic for this. And then, oh, I want to get this person’s permission to share their thing in our… And next thing, you know, three hours have gone, and I’ve started getting more intentional about saying, this will be done in an hour. You know, there’s that whole theory that the name of it just escaped me, but that we fill the time allotted to us. We fill the space allotted to us. If I go into it, knowing that it has to be done in an hour, then I don’t get caught up by all of the… Things that pop up that make me say, oh, I could do that too. And I could add this, and I could, you know. No. Stay focused. What’s the end game here. The end game here is that it’s done by 2:00.

Alyssa:
Yup.

Joe:
And my team knows that I am famous around here for saying, um, perfection is the enemy of done. Which is a huge lesson that I learned when I wrote my first book. And my editor told me this over and over again: Joe, the sooner you learn that perfection is the enemy of done, you’re going to have a book. Until you learn it, you’re not – because you will rewrite forever. And she was absolutely right.

Alyssa:
Yeah.

Joe:
You know, and I have such commitments to thresholds of quality that I will constantly tweak and improve and tweak and improve and tweak and improve. And it’s like, listen, you know, where you got it in an hour is pretty great. And that doesn’t mean you’re settling for good enough. It means you’re settling for done.

Alyssa:
Yes.

Joe:
Which is needed.

Alyssa:
Right. Those are some great strategies. I really, really appreciate those. The one other element that I think is important to bring in is that when it comes to dismantling this cultural myth of productivity, we have to do our part to role model it and make it visible. Because it doesn’t… It hasn’t become a culture of productivity by accident. People continually witness you as a leader at their desk from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM.

Joe:
Yup.

Alyssa:
And then they think, well, that must mean that’s what I have to do. Right? You have to lead by example, and we have to stop rewarding behavior that is not truly productive. It is not about the amount of face time that you get in this organization. It is not about the amount of emails or the time that you sent it out. You’re not going to get props for sending a response back at midnight. Right?

Joe:
First.

Alyssa:
Yes. And that, that is no longer acceptable behavior. And we’re going to have a conversation with you about balance and true productivity. If that’s the kind of thing that continues. But you have to start leading by example and making it known, communicating clearly, this amount of volume and quantity does not equal productivity here.

Joe:
Right. Right. And we’re seeing organizations, I think, who have come a long way in, in terms of recognizing that the kind of piling on of work and duties and the, you know, take as many hours as it takes to get it all done is doing harm.

Alyssa:
Uh-huh.

Joe:
We’re seeing organizations now who are saying, if you add a new meeting, you must take one away. If you add a new responsibility, what are you taking away? Because they recognize that the space is only so big. And when you invade the space beyond its reasonable, healthy borders you only create burnout. You only create exhaustion. You only wear down your talent in such a way that could potentially drive them away. And when you look at organizations who’ve really started to understand this and prioritize it, their folks were actually working a little bit less and it results in them being more productive and having more engagement and having higher quality of experiences in the workplace and retaining more talent. And so, I love that you brought this up both at the individual level, but also, we can talk about it at the organizational level now, in terms of what are the organization’s values, how are they prioritizing people’s, uh, you know, for lack of a better term, work-life balance, which is kind of a mythical term, it’s more like work-life management nowadays. Um, but those, those conversations are real, and they are happening, but they begin with us.

Alyssa:
Absolutely. Thanks so much for sharing all those gems and strategies. And I hope you folks out there got a lot from this conversation and you can start dismantling starting right after you’ve listened to the rest of this podcast.

Joe:
Absolutely. And making time in your schedule to listen to our podcast because we think it helps.

Alyssa:
That’s right!

Joe:
And what do you think BossHeroes? We want to hear from you. We want, you know, your reactions to what you’ve heard, what other kinds of tips and tricks, and maybe “A-ha” moments have come to you around productivity. What adjustments have you made to your thinking or to your routine to actually be more productive and not have these things bleed into other corners of your life? If you’re watching the episode online, just drop a comment below the video. Otherwise, you can email the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.

Joe:
Well, that brings us now, my friend, to the Camaraderie Question of the Week. Bosses build camaraderie on teams, by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. Every week, we give you a question, you can use at meetings to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. The question this week, Alyssa: What was the first thing you remember buying with your own money?

Alyssa:
Wow. Okay. So, I’m going to say that it, at some level, it didn’t matter. I mean, I started working when I was like 14, right? Maybe even earlier with like mowing lawns and stuff, but I’m sure I’m for certain, it was probably a purse of some kind – and I’m not talking, I’m not talking like I don’t have like, you know, name, brand stuff. I’m talking about low quality, but just every kind of color design. I had this like obsession growing up with like purses ever since, like again, you know, maybe nine, 10 years old. I, I have totes and totes and totes worth of them. I have paired them down. A lot of them still live in my parents’ house, unfortunately.

Joe:
I was going to ask if this is still a current thing. Cause I remember in a recent episode, you talked about the large luggage that you carry with you with everything you could potentially need for survival that you call a purse.

Alyssa:
Uh, it has not. I can’t even tell you the last time… First of all, during the entire pandemic, like, if I did go out to the grocery store, I didn’t even take a purse. I only took like a little wallet thing that I could put in my pocket, um, that had my ID and a credit card or whatever. And so now, and I haven’t changed my bag, it’s a, it’s a utilitarian like Timbuk2 waterproof, like totally anti-purse bag. So, it’s definitely changed. I do still appreciate my tote that I have here at my house, you know, for special occasions, I’ll dig out my fake Prada. Um, but you know, that’s the first thing I remember buying. I’m… I also distinctly remember buying my first car. I paid $750. It didn’t even make it home from the place, I bought it.

Joe:
Wow!

Alyssa:
But I remember spending that $750 and thinking, wow, the car is not really that great of an investment, is it?

Joe:
You know what? You just landed on what could be another really fun Camaraderie Question, which is, tell us about your first car.

Alyssa:
Oh!

Joe:
That could be a real fun thing to hear. So, we’ll, we’ll, uh, we’ll throw that one out there for folks as well. But, um, yeah, I, I remember my first car. Yeah. It was a four-cylinder that drove like a two-cylinder. I would, I would usually get up hills.

Alyssa:
I couldn’t even stop at stop signs for mine.

Joe:
Oh, man.

Alyssa:
Okay. So, uh, tell us what little Joey bought with his money whenever he… I’m sure you mowed lawns or maybe you shoveled snow or something like that for your hard-earned dollars.

Joe:
I think the first money I probably got was like an allowance or money from grandma or something like that.

Alyssa:
Oh. Gotcha.

Joe:
And it’s funny that you said, “little Joey”. When I was growing up for years, I was known in the family as “Little Joe” because my dad’s – Joe. And so, there was Joe and “Little Joe”. That’s funny. I had this Christmas stocking that said “Little Joe” on it. Um, but then I turned like nine and then it was, and then, so the rest of the time I’m Joseph, like in my family, it’s, it’s Joseph. From my wife and my wife’s family, it’s Joe, but even still with a lot of on my side. Anyway. Um…

Alyssa:
Oh. Fun.

Joe:
What I remember, I really had to think about this one. Um, I have a very vivid memory of coming out of a department store, a toy store with a Transformer. And I think I picked it out. I think I bought it, you know, we’ve, we’ve talked about favorite toys and that was like the center of my childhood and the Transformer’s name was WheelJack. I can see… I can see the package and I could see the toy vividly in my mind’s eye. And literally like wide-eyed staring at it as I walked across the parking lot with mom toward the car. And so maybe, maybe it’s that. Uh, but that’s the only thing I could, I could think of other than candy.

Alyssa:
That’s amazing. And for folks that aren’t watching us, I just want to like describe to you, this is exactly why you do a camaraderie question. This is why it’s so important. If, if I could just like show you Joe’s face. And like what I picked up and what I now know about Joe and his childhood and his work ethic and, and that vivid memory and his eyes lighting up. That is what building real camaraderie looks like in real-time. This is why you ask these questions.

Joe:
Perfectly said.

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Joe:
All right, Alyssa, we are going to chat for a few minutes about a question that we got over email about how to respond when an employee complains about those “other duties as assigned”. So, this is our segment called Mail Time.

Joe:
So, I got an email from Missy who asks, “I have two staff who always say they need more of a raise for, quote, ‘performance’. One of which is usually just doing the things in her job. The other does a few more things around here, uh, related to some other duties, uh, and is sometimes on-call when some other people are off. And she also does some new hire training for us in her role. But they’re constantly asking for more pay, more compensation. How do I handle this? Do I just shut up and listen, and then ask them what they think is reasonable and fair? Um, should I be paying them more for these kinds of other duties, even though it doesn’t feel like it, even though it feels to me like these are things that are just a part of the job when you’re a more experienced employee? What say you? And so, I thought that would be an interesting topic for us. Where would you like to start?

Alyssa:
Well, I love other duties as assigned because if that isn’t the last line of every job description.

Joe:
Every one. Yup.

Alyssa:
I have ever written in my entire 20-year career as an HR professional.

Joe:
Uh-huh.

Alyssa:
I don’t know what is. I think this, like, isn’t an interesting juxtaposition to our initial conversation about productivity, right? And what I wonder is… are these ‘other duties’ that they’re talking about, is it something that they are truly adding value to the organization with? Um, and, and maybe that’s where we need to explore and get a little bit more clear because again, this mythology of I’m doing more, the quantity, the volume of what I’m doing, you know, is more,

Joe:
Yes.

Alyssa:
Isn’t necessarily, again, required to get reciprocal compensation.

Joe:
Uh-huh.

Alyssa:
What we have to do is also be fair enough to recognize when we are continually asking people to do things that are going to take up more of their time, that are bringing… Is bringing more value to the organization than perhaps we might want to recognize, or that we have in the past recognized. And discern is that something that is perhaps compensable through bonus or on an as-needed basis? Um, rather than here’s a, you know, a 50-cent increase per hour kind of thing. These are the thoughts that go through my brain. You know, again, in correlation to this conversation, we’ve just had about productivity and then having this kind of, you know, historical HR context to bring to the muddle of the mix too. What are your thoughts? Where do you start whenever you think about this issue?

Joe:
So, there are a couple of angles here. Um, and I think it starts with what I know about how motivation works at work. Um, what we know is that extrinsic motivators like pay and benefits are like a shot of caffeine. Um, often if you reward people with them, you may get upticks in mood and appreciation and performance, but for some folks that will wear off and they will return to baseline. And so, if what we have in this circumstance is someone who, uh, doesn’t feel appreciated or is complaining this may not solve the problem. And so, so that’s the kind of first part of these complaints. Like these often are symptoms of an underlying issue where the employee is not feeling valued. Sometimes they occur, you know, when the employee has been with the organization for a long time, and it’s perhaps, um, looking around and seeing, I have more experience, I do more in either case sometimes more affirmation from people higher up in the org chart can go a long way to diffusing that frustration.

Joe:
Uh, the other side of this though, is that if you have continued to add duties to someone’s plate, it isn’t out of bounds for the employee to ask, uh, or to feel like they should be compensated differently. Or additionally, for that work, I think the question we as leaders have to ask is, is this person working beyond the scope of their job role as outlined? If the answer is yes, then additional pay really might be warranted. Um, and there there’s such a gray area here because I always ask this question of leaders. When I do various kinds of leadership training, let’s say you work in a hospital.

Joe:
Do you expect something different from a nurse with eight years of experience than you do from a nurse with eight months of experience in terms of how they show up?… And almost every leader says yes. And when you ask employees that if you ask a room full of nurses, do you expect a nurse with eight years of experience to show up differently than a nurse with eight months of experience? They all say yes too. So, so there’s a tacit acknowledgment that experience influences the scope of performance and scope of responsibilities. And so that’s where I come back to the job description. We have to look at the market. We have to look at us. So many other factors. What I suggest leaders do is engage in an ongoing conversation to figure out…is this person not feeling valued? What’s, what’s triggering these questions and thoughts sometimes just asking them what they’re looking for.

Joe:
Especially if your salary structures or the roles as they’re defined in the organization, maybe this person is capped out in their, uh, you know, their salary structure asking them what – “Yes, you’re right.” We have you doing some more new hire training and, and you’re doing some things that other people aren’t. What could we provide you in value in exchange for that? They may not always tell you it’s money. Maybe they want some more flexibility in their schedule. Maybe that’s the kind of extra that they’re looking for. Maybe it’s just a perk. If, if you’re pointing to someone and saying, we want you to do this thing, because you’re really good at it, you’re better than everybody else. And you have more experience then. Yeah. Let’s, let’s provide an exchange of value, but it doesn’t always have to be money. So, uh, those are all of my kind of thoughts rattling around in my head as well.

Alyssa:
I love it. You know, sometimes we’re like this, like the… the thoughts aren’t the same, but the ideas weave together, this like whole picture that if you can’t get something out of what each of our perspectives, then you’re not looking because I feel like that was like a whole dang 360 of all the different perspectives you need to consider. And some very practical advice and strategies to take for it.

Joe:
And if nothing else, being able to sit down with that person and saying… Especially if you can’t do anything relative to additional compensation, just being completely honest about that and saying, I understand what you’re asking. I understand why you’re asking, but this is not something that’s possible. So how do we resolve it? Can you, can you disagree with what your salary is, but commit anyway, we use some of that language here before on, on the podcast. Um, if you need to pursue other opportunities that you feel more fairly compensate you, then I… I’ll support you in that. I’m going to be an advocate for you. And if you go across the street and you figure out the grass wasn’t really greener there, and you want to come back, I hope I’m your first phone call. You know, sometimes we just have to be an ally and an advocate for people and not necessarily try to disagree with whether they should or shouldn’t get something as opposed to just saying, well, if you are in pursuit of this, here’s, what’s possible here. And here’s, what’s not.

Alyssa:
Well said, well said,

Joe:
Well, BossHeroes, that’s our show. Before we go, do you know a BossHero? If you do, we want to hear about them. We want to hear about those leaders who go to work every day, devoted to creating the conditions for people to thrive. And we want to hear about them because we can learn from them. We want to spotlight them here on our show in recognition of the difference they’ve made in the lives of others. And as a way to learn about how the best bosses operate, you can nominate a boss hero for recognition on our show. By going to bossherostories.com, Fill out the form and tell us about the BossHero in your life. If we choose to share their story, both you and they are going to get some pretty great BossHero swag, nominate a BossHero at bossherostories.com. Thanks for listening. See you next time.

Alyssa:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.