12. Is Gossip Good? + Social Butterflies vs Taskmasters at Meetings

Transcript – Episode 12: Is Gossip Good? + Social Butterflies vs Taskmasters at Meetings

Joe:
Are there times when gossip at work is a good thing? Is it possible to hold meetings that satisfy both your social butterflies and your get it over with taskmasters? Is there a TV show you’d be willing to watch over and over again for the rest of your life? We answer these burning questions and more right now on Boss Better Now.

Alyssa:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. Please welcome speaker, author, and SHRM superfan, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Hi again, BossHeroes. Welcome to the show that was just named by SHRM as one of 5 can’t miss podcasts for leaders in 2021. SHRM, S H R M is the society for human resource management. They are the largest HR association in the world, and we just ended up first on a list with Brene’ Brown and Harvard Business Review. And now we can die happy. Right? Alyssa, did you just die when you saw that we are on a list with Brene’ Brown?

Alyssa:
You know, first I saw SHRM. Which I’ve been a member of the organization for, I don’t know, almost two decades of my life, because that’s my profession. Right? So, to be acknowledged by an organization that you have been a member of for a bajillion years is amazeballs and then Brene’s… Brene’s name is on like this same paper as us. I’m like who… I had a; I had an out of body experience.

Joe:
And here’s, what’s funny about this. Uh, I didn’t even really get it at first. So, we, a colleague of mine, um, responded to a media query, looking for like the best podcasts for managers and leaders, that might be a little under the radar in 2021. And she very generously wrote in and highlighted our show and I’ve heard that one or two other people did as well. And, um, so apparently, they went away and listened to them. And so here we are. They published this article that says there are five can’t miss shows for leaders in 2021. And when I saw it, I was like, wow, that’s amazing SHRM. Yes, we love SHRM. And like a half an hour later, uh, Jamie, my colleague here at Joe Mull and Associates – who does all the behind the scenes editing and everything for our podcast – texted me, and I’m standing in my kitchen. And the text messages that she sent me was, “You just ended up on a list with Brene’ Brown and Harvard Business Review.” And I got, I got goosebumps in that moment. Then it kind of hit me like, wow, that that’s, that, that is praise that I hope we will find ourselves worthy of each and every time we sit down to record one of these things.

Alyssa:
Yes, yes, indeed. And that’s what makes me swallow my vulnerability and courage and all of the other things that it takes to sit in this seat and say, thank you so much to all of our listeners. And I am just so grateful for the opportunity. And I truly truly hope that this is a platform in which I can serve and serve well.

Joe:
Well, as Brene’ has said, um, we step into the arena and that is where we, we fight, and we do our work. I’m not quoting Brene’ cause that is not nearly as elegant as she states it. But, uh, the idea that we really only should subject ourselves to criticism by folks who are also in the arena. Uh, and so we are stepping into the arena today, once again, in the hopes of giving you some advice, humor and encouragement, as you go out into the world and try to, uh, care for and support the people in your charge. And we’re going to start today, Alyssa, with a question. Is gossip good? And this question came out of something that, that you sent me not long ago, uh, from a book that you are reading. So why don’t you tell our listeners, uh, where this question came from?

Alyssa:
So, I have a dear friend, um, who sent me this book, um, because she knows, I love Jay Shetty’s podcast On Purpose. And he came out with a book, uh, that is called Think Like a Monk. And so, of all of the, the concepts that I’m, um, learning about in his book, well, this one stood out and I really wanted to hear what you thought about this concept. He writes, “Gossip has value, in some situations. It helps society regulate what is acceptable behavior. And we often use it to see if other people agree with our judgements about other people’s behavior and therefore our values.” Agree or disagree? Or is it there? Is there a gray because you know, with me, there’s out, Oh, there’s gray everywhere. I’m in the isshy, squishy gray of the world.

Joe:
I it’s, it’s absolutely true. Uh, I want to be careful about what it might infer because I think that a reading of that might infer that we should expect gossip and allow for it. And that the kind of testing that takes place when Person A goes to Person B to talk about their judgements of Person C is in and of a healthy behavior. And that’s not always going to be the case, right? So, this is going to sound like a pitch slap where you grossly promote or plug a service or product. And it’s not meant to be. But when I wrote my book, No More Team Drama, I spent a lot of time talking about gossip and trying to get at some of the psychology behind why it happens. Because this I think, is an opportunity for us to understand what makes people tick. And if you’ve ever seen my No More Team Drama Keynote, I, that’s what I spend most of the time in the keyn… keynote talking about, we have a lot of fun with the topic and we have a lot of laughs, but I want people to really understand what makes the people in your charge tick.

Joe:
And one of the things we know about the human brain is that we have these shortcuts that they take in an effort to operate more efficiently. And one of those shortcuts is something called the Fundamental Attribution Error. And what that is is that we have a natural shortcut our brain takes where we assume that we’re a good person doing the best we can most of the time, but we don’t give that benefit of the doubt to everybody else. The shortcut our brain takes is that when we see someone else do a questionable thing, our brain tells us it’s because they’re of questionable character.

Joe:
Not because of their circumstances when someone is late to work. And I will actually ask this of an audience when I’m in front of them. What do you assume about someone who’s late to work? The first five answers are always lazy, not paying attention, didn’t care, um, not committed, right? We get these character defects that come out first as the answer, and then I’ll ask, well, what about when you’re late to work? And people say, Oh, well, you know, there was traffic or, you know, we, we, the, the bus was late picking up my kids for school, or right when I was walking out the door, I spilled orange juice, all my pants. There’s always a perfectly acceptable reason that in and of itself is not a character defect. And so, what gossip does, if we, if we accept it as a way to check our judgments of other people’s behavior with a third-party gossip doesn’t account for the Fundamental Attribution Error, because both Person A and Person B are still engaging in that bias, which is they are judging the behavior of the other person based on assumptions of character, not of circumstance.

Joe:
And it is only until Person A goes to Person C and says, help me understand why you acted that way… That Person C then says, Oh, well, you know, my daughter spilled orange juice on my pants, right? When I was walking out the door and I had to change them, and then they needed pressed off. And that’s why I’m 10 minutes late. And so, gossip is a naturally occurring phenomenon that still results in flawed judgments.

Alyssa:
Hmm. That’s really astute and a great framework to think about, um, the concept of those judgments that are going on. Right. Um, and, and to be perfectly clear, Jay Shetty is not advocating for people to go out and gossip. It was, it was actually an illustration of a longer point about overall negativity and how, how gossip overridingly does contribute to negatively and, uh, to your capacity to be able to, um, move yourself along in life in general. Right? But to your point, these very specific, um, points of how that actually works in the workplace is really important for our leaders and for our audience. So, what do you think is the most important step that folks – that leaders – out there can take in terms of that attribution error, being able to articulate it, recognize it for themselves, maybe for helping other people gently, politely articulate it for them.

Joe:
So yeah, we have to be able to translate some of that psychology into some everyday language that we can pull out and use both in the interactions we have with our team and in our own heads. And so, one of the things that I talk about a lot when I’m talking about team drama, is this idea that our brains make up a story about why other people do what they do and say what they say. And most of the time, that story is not accurate. And so, as leaders, when someone comes to us and says, I am done with so-and-so. They’re not doing this, and they don’t care, and they don’t try. And I’ve had it. I think, as leaders, sometimes we need to say, okay, well, that might be true. That might be the accurate story, but what if there’s a perfectly good explanation for why this person is engaging this way?

Joe:
This is the question I tell audiences to put in their pocket and take with them everywhere that they go, what would make a good person act this way? If this person had a perfectly legitimate reason for engaging in that behavior, what might it be? And if this person’s late, over and over again, we start to make up a different story about things that aren’t character defects. And so, we have to do that internally in our heads as well. Um, you know, and, and to go back to the point made in the book, Jay is right. It’s a normal pattern of human behavior to want to check our judgments about other people with other people but recognize what’s happening in the pattern. We’re going to that other person to be validated, not always to be challenged, right? It’s a lot easier to seek out the comfort of validation than to step into the discomfort of confrontation.

Alyssa:
Ooh, yes. Yes.

Joe:
When we go to our co-worker, we’re saying, and, and, and, and, you know, a lot of people listening to this have seen my Ted Talk on this subject, and they’ve seen the fun that we have with this, but Person B almost always respond to the same way when Person A, it comes to this, to their colleague at work and says, do you believe that so-and-so is doing this, that, and the other thing, they almost always respond by saying, “I know,” and now we’ve given each other permission to feel contempt for that third person. And it feels good to think of ourselves as superior. And these are all very basic things that, that are true in, in the statement from the book, but they can lead to unhealthy patterns of conflict in the workplace.

Alyssa:
This concept of the, the stories that we’re telling and what we’re trying to get whenever we go to people with gossip and when people approach us with gossip, I think if I had to translate that for how I experience it as a coach. There’s this mode of storytelling, I like to refer to it as whether it is a story that the client is telling about someone else or a story that they’re telling about themselves. Right? My question is, and I generally speaking, interrupt them to say this question, what’s most important about that to you? What’s most important about this to you because it does two things. Number one tells them; I don’t give a crap about the story. I want to know. What’s important about this to you. How does this apply to you? Right? So, if I’m a leader and people are continually approaching me with gossip, and I am determined to be someone that doesn’t participate in that kind of process, I set the tone. I lead by example; I’m going to start asking that question. I’m going to start being that person that says what’s the most important about that to you? Like, how does that matter to you?

Joe:
Especially if what they’re throwing out there are inconsequential details about people’s actions or cause what’s often under the surface is assumptions about intent, right? When, when, when we see someone engaging in a way that for one reason or other it’s a violation, you know, we give ourselves permission to feel superior. And then we decide that that person is of poor character. So now I’m going to make some assumptions about their intent. They don’t care. They don’t try. They’re not trying hard enough. Um, hold on. Um, that first question I asked, are we making up a story that might not be true? Or if that is true… So? I mean, that, that’s kind of another version I think of of what you’re saying.

Alyssa:
Yeah. I, to me, I have to envision, what’s authentic to me to be able to feel like I’m not punching that person in the face. You know? So, if it’s a colleague that’s coming up to me, uh, cause that’s generally, I mean, there are certainly folks that will be what I would call it, your narcs on, on your team, right. That are gonna come to you. They’re technically a subordinate, uh, under the hierarchy, they’re going to come and report up to you about every little thing that’s going on. Right. But generally speaking, the most, uh, kind of thing that I’ve seen, the most interaction of kind of that gossip that really kind of matters is colleague to colleague where, and so to me, as another colleagues approaching me, I’m going to do what feels most authentic, where I’m not going to make them feel horrible about themselves, but I am going to make them check themselves because it really doesn’t matter to them.

Alyssa:
And they’re just spouting because they want me to know and, you know, conjure up some great juicy bits myself and add to the story that they can continue to roll. Oh, and then Alyssa said this and dah, dah, dah, and be part of this whole machinery of it. Um, that’s whenever I’m going to use the language that, what’s most important about this to you? Because if it’s important to you… “Oh, you know, well, I don’t know, are they doing that to me? Will the company think that of me whenever I, you know, miss a project deadline or I’m not quite sure why that’s important to me, but it just, yeah.”

Joe:
Everybody ends up in a different corner of the triangle at some point. Absolutely.

Alyssa:
Yeah. All the things.

Joe:
And, and your point of, of what should be the reaction of Person B when Person A comes to them is well taken. Because if we don’t do the work as a team ahead of time to talk about how we want our team to operate, then Person B dives into the juicy gossip, just, you know, too often right away and validates that person and says, Oh, I know. And, and you know, now I’m happy to be there because I’m in on the scuttlebutt. And I’m kind of glad it’s not about me. And when we want them to do is actually redirect that person. Right? Because you, you talked earlier about the, the, the narc employee who wants to share all the juicy details, but sometimes they’re coming to the boss and complaining because they think it’s the boss’s job to fix Person C and the boss doesn’t want to be in that business.

Joe:
The boss wants to be in the business of preparing everybody on the team to take their issues directly to each other. And so, when we, when we do team building, we have meetings. When we set aside time to help talk about how we’re going to operate as a team, one of the things that we have to do is explore how are we going to handle conflict when it arises? If somebody is bothered by something that you’ve said or did, what do you want them to do? And here’s a really interesting observation that we see in workplaces as well. If you ask teams that question, if someone has a problem with you, if they’re frustrated by something you’ve said or done, how do you want them to handle it? Everybody says, “Well, I want them to come to me.”

Joe:
But when you flip that around, they don’t want to be held to the same standard when they have a problem with somebody else. So, I always advise leaders. If somebody comes into your office and you’ve done that work, and everyone has agreed. If somebody has a problem with me, I want you to bring it to me. And now you come into my office complaining about Person C. I’m going to go, hold on, time out, you made a promise in front of everybody on the team that you were going to take this stuff directly to them first, did you do that? And if the answer is no, then I’ve got to put you on warning that there’s a potential trust violation here. Your team isn’t going to trust you. You, you …to keep your word, if you don’t do it. So, sit and why don’t you. And I prepare for that conversation. My job, as the boss, isn’t to fix it for you. My job as a boss is to challenge some of the assumptions that you’re having and help you work through the language that you should potentially use to go to Person C and maybe have an uncomfortable conversation.

Alyssa:
Wow. That is a game changer. I feel like, Oh, I wish I could teleport right back to all of those scenarios that I experienced in the workplace and do that thing. That is so powerful. That’s a great tactical perspective. It’s a great strategy. Do it. Everyone out there in our audience. That is awesome.

Joe:
And I’m going to say one more thing about our, our kind of source quote, this idea that it’s, it’s sort of a normal pattern, uh, cause it’s true. And I want to differentiate between gossip and processing. Um, I think that sometimes we have to remind leaders to respect the right of your employees, to talk about you, to other people. That’s going to happen. It’s normal, right? Um, how you show up will determine whether or not that is a flattering conversation or not. The level of trust and respect that you have earned will determine whether that is a flattering conversation or not. What you really ideally want. When Person A goes to Person B to either talk about you or Person C is for Person A to say, “I am having a reaction to something that just happened. And I know I need to talk about Person C with it, but before I do that, can you help me process this?”

Joe:
Because if I’m way off, I can shut that down now and not worry about wasting that other person’s time. And so that Person B is there to kind of say, yeah, let’s, let’s pick this apart a little bit and see if it’s valid and come to it with the proper intent. That’s not gossip, that’s processing, that’s healthy. We want that. We want to encourage that. I always tell teams that, that do our no more teen drama workshops that their job as Person B is almost always redirection. Right? Why do you think that what is, what is making up that story? You need to go talk to this person about that. Okay. We’ve already spent enough time on this. We shouldn’t be, you know, whispering in the corner about it. You need to go talk to them. It’s almost always redirection. So, gossip is normal. It is expected when it involves processing. It’s healthy.

Alyssa:
Excellent points. Excellent points.

Joe:
Well, what do you think folks, we want to hear from you. You can tell us about your judgements of us by heading over to the Boss Better Now podcast page at bossbetternowpodcast.com where you can leave comments under each and every episode. You can also leave comments on the Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook page. We also post the video of every episode to our Boss Better Now YouTube channel. You can go there, subscribe, and you can leave comments on segments and episodes there as well. We check all of that. And your social media interaction is always, always appreciated… Which brings us to our Camaraderie Question of the Week. Do you know we do the Camaraderie Question of the Week because it cuts down on the false assumptions that people make about each other via the Fundamental Attribution Error.

Joe:
Yes, that’s right. Bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why every week we give you a question, you can use it with your teams to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. When you build camaraderie, it’s much less likely that that shortcut’s going to kick in, in your brain…that makes you say that person engaged in that behavior because they’re a bad dude. So, we build camaraderie for that reason. And our Camaraderie Question of the Week, this week is as follows. Alyssa, you can only watch one TV series over and over again for the rest of your life. What is it?

Alyssa:
Oh my gosh. This is like, which kid is your favorite to me? Like, I mean, I’m lucky, I guess. I only have one kid. If that were a thing…if I had more than one kid, it would be a problem. I like… TV is my like escape pod. And so, I, I would really struggle with this because I love the funniness, on the deep personal characters, of like The Office. There’s also really cringy to me at some points. And so, I don’t think I could subject myself lifetime to that. cringiness it w it would be too much. And then there’s like, okay, a funny show, maybe like a classic, a classic to me would be like Seinfeld. Right. But then that doesn’t have necessarily the depth I’m looking for. So, I think in order to encapsulate all of those things that I’m looking at, and you can say shut the heck up, but Friends.

Joe:
Oh, there’s no. Shut the heck up on that. Okay. I don’t think there’s a lot of folks who are going to argue that Friends doesn’t go down in history as one of the great sitcoms of all time. Um, it’s an extraordinary cast. It’s incredibly, well-written incredibly, well-acted funny, depth of character. Yeah, no, I Friends would be, I would think of one of the least objectionable answers to this question.

Alyssa:
What would be an objectional answer right off the top of your head? Like if somebody, if I had responded with, fill in the blank show, you would have been like, you’re dead to me.

Joe:
Uh, The Real Housewives of ______, any Kardashian series. And I don’t judge like, like, you know, if that’s… BossHeroes listening, if that’s your thing, I, I do not judge. I know that for me, when I watch those shows, it makes me lose faith in humankind.

Joe:
And That’s very, that’s very judgy of the people on the shows. And I will acknowledge that, but I have a friend who years ago made me think of this in a different way. She said, I watched those shows because they make me feel better about myself. And.

Alyssa:
That is exactly what I was going to say.

Joe:
I get it.

Alyssa:
That is exactly what I was going to say. Okay. So now the, your real answer to the question of, you can only watch one TV series over and over again for the rest of your life. What is it, Joe?

Joe:
The West Wing. The greatest television show ever made.

Alyssa:
I should have guessed that. I should have done that.

Joe:
That is my all-time favorite show. For me, there’s the West Wing and there’s everything else. Uh, it sits above. I don’t watch a lot of TV. I’m not a big TV watcher. I’d rather watch a movie, um, you know, or the news or sports. Um, so I don’t have a lot of shows that are, you know, long-term appointment viewing. I have a couple, but, um, I have watched the complete West Wing series probably 15 times. I mean, it’s like for years when I started my business, I would put an episode on while I ate lunch and I’ve just moved through it over and over again. It is brilliantly written, brilliantly acted. It’s charming. It’s funny. Um, it, it has, it is one of the most awarded television shows in the history of television shows. Um, it is one of those quotable shows. Um, it’s, it’s, it’s a beautiful piece of art. Um, and I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that part of the inspiration for me starting this podcast was the podcast called the West Wing Weekly, which has two folks from the show who were involved in the show who each ep, each podcast episode, they recap an episode and they kind of dive deep. And ironically, I don’t listen to a lot of podcasts, um,

Alyssa:
Which again is the polar opposite of me. Yeah.

Joe:
And, uh, but I, you know, during exercise and whatnot would kind of get lost in their, um, unpacking of all the different West Wing episodes and just loved their, loved how smart the show is and loved how funny it is. And, and kind of made me think this would be fun to do it in terms of the podcast and in terms of a medium to explore interesting topics. And so here we are. So, for me…West Wing.

Alyssa:
I love it. I think it’s hilarious because I have this wide breadth of, of podcasts that I really enjoy, and I find absolute gold. And, and that’s my, one of my consumptions of learning, um, is podcasts every day. And so, when you came to me with this, Oh, you know, maybe you should listen to this. And I was kind of like, okay, I listened to it. And I was like, podcast about a TV show. That’s done. Okay. Now mind you, I did love the West Wing. But again, when you commit to something, Joe, you commit like 1010%. So, your super fandom is, is a little out of my reach. I still find the value in the show. Yes. And I am eternally grateful that you were inspired by it. To make this podcast, which I get to be a part of.

Joe:
We just tied a direct line from the West Wing to SHRM and Brene’ Brown. Like we ended up on the list because of going way back, because there was a West Wing TV show, which led to a podcast, which led to us being here and so on and so forth. And that folks is the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Alyssa:
Hello, BossHeroes, are you planning a conference, meeting, or event? Why not invite our own Joe Mull to be your keynote speaker? Joe speaks and writes about commitment in the workplace in a way that is funny, powerful, and captivating. He knows that your attendees want rich content that is relevant to them and delivered in a way that is fun, compelling, and useful. Joe’s keynote programs help leaders say and do new things so they can get better results. If you’re planning a remote event, Joe can beam in from a fully equipped virtual broadcast studio with multiple cameras, professional, audio, and lighting, and tons of interactive ways to engage participants. He will leave your audience raving about their experience. Oh, and Joe is a Certified Speaking Professional. That’s the highest earned designation in professional speaking that is held by less than 20% of speakers worldwide. The CSP is only awarded to speakers with a proven track record of experience, expertise, education, outstanding client service, and ethical behavior. Whether your event is in-person or virtual, your audience doesn’t want another boring 60-minute lecture. They deserve to learn and be inspired by a world-class program from a professional speaker. They simply cannot turn away from that’s what you get guaranteed from Joe Mull. For more information, visit joemull.com/speaking. To check date availability, or to get a quote, email jamie@joemull.com. That’s J A M I E @joemull.com.

Joe:
All right, Alyssa, we close today with Mail Time.

Joe:
Listeners. You know, we want to hear from you both so that we can customize our show to the needs and challenges you face every day, so that we can answer your questions, so that we can continue to be food for the boss’s soul. So, uh, I’ve got, uh, three comments to share with you, Alyssa. And then a question from one of our listeners. First, Mike in Connecticut, wrote in to tell us how much he appreciated our conversation about toxic positivity in Episode 9. He says, I finally have a name for something I’ve been aware of and fought against for 20 years. Leaders create positive environments by knowing that people are people, and they have bad days, let them have that experience, not try to solve every problem.

Alyssa:
Oh, I’m so grateful for that comment. I’m so glad that you put a name to it. There’s power in that, man.

Joe:
Right? John in Wisconsin liked our BossScript from that same episode, Episode 9. The BossScript was, “Are you here to vent or are you asking for my help?” That was the conversation we had. If you have somebody who keeps coming with a lot of complaints or issues and a lot of unloading, uh, how do we reign that in a little bit? And John says, “Putting a time limit on that conversation helps the person focus their issue. It can also…” I love how he says this. This is very diplomatic. “Eliminate part of the backstory that isn’t really necessary to the issue at hand.” well said, John.

Alyssa:
Indeed. And that, as I remember was another solid gold Joe Mull moment. That script is solid gold.

Joe:
Well, thank you, my friend. Robin in South Dakota, um, made the mistake of publishing something really nice about our podcast on LinkedIn, uh, so she didn’t email this to us, but I’m going to read it on our show anyway, cause it, it, it made me feel nice. She said our podcast is “refreshing, enlightening, and honest,” and that we quote, “give leaders great insights to help themselves and their teams”. She also says she loves the Camaraderie Question of the Week. So, Robin, you said something nice on LinkedIn and I’m giving you a shout out. Thank you for that.

Alyssa:
Thank you, Robin.

Joe:
Uh, but here’s our question, Alyssa, for Mail Time today, Jamis, in Colorado writes in and asks this. I struggle with appeasing people who want meetings to be concise, and those who want to spend some of that meeting time team building and enjoying each other’s company. How do we please both? Right. This is our classic social butterflies versus taskmasters question. Where do you want to start, Alyssa?

Alyssa:
Oh, well, I guess depends on the day I might be hitting for that team or over here on this side of the table. I’m just not quite sure. Catch me whenever…you know, I’m not feeling my introverted self, you know, I might be all right with staying afterwards. I’m not quite sure I have a ready response for what’s the happy medium. I mean, do folks do a little bit of both or do they say, Hey, if you want to stay after we can all chit chat and then give the, uh, the taskmasters, the opt out. But I don’t know that that feels real nice, either. Like, Oh, you don’t care enough about me to like stick around to hear what I have to say. Like, I don’t know. What, what are your thoughts, Joe?

Joe:
I think this is another example of something we just talked about a few minutes ago, which is understanding some of the psychology behind what makes people tick. Uh, one of the things that you’ve talked about over and over again on our show is your introversion, right? You understand that you need alone time to fill up your gas tank. You understand that that’s how you prefer to process information. Uh, and you understand that circumstances that require you to do extroverted things are expensive for you, right? They drain your gas tank. Um, I, I’m a certified MBTI practitioner. I use the Myers-Briggs type indicator in, in some different kinds of ways. And I know that there, there are some folks who don’t love that it’s, it’s an imperfect tool, but it also gets a bad rap. I think it can be a really useful way for us to understand some naturally occurring differences between people.

Joe:
And when we think about extroversion and introversion, there is a misunderstanding about what it is. People perceive it as social comfort, right? They believe that extroverts are outgoing, and introverts are shy and that’s not it at all. Um, it’s about where we get our energy from and how we prefer to take in and process information. And so, the first thing to understand is that extroverted people need other people to fill up their gas tank and to process information. Introverted people need time to process information where they can retreat into their own mental cave. But if you force them to it out loud with other people, it’s expensive for them, it drains their gas tank. Um, and so I think it is possible to construct meetings in a way that allows both folks to operate at their optimal levels. But we have to bring into the light and understanding of these differences, but meetings themselves are an extroverted construct, right? Let’s get all the people together and we’re going to share all the information or we’re going to talk about the stuff and the problems. And then we’ll see what everybody thinks, right? The, the scales are tilted in the extrovert’s favor. Um, when I do deeper dive training on this with teams, I will often ask a room full of people. What’s a good meeting like for you?

Joe:
And you can immediately separate the extroverts from the introverts, right? The extroverts say everybody shows up. The introverts say a good meeting for me is when I can call into. And….

Alyssa:
Be on mute.

Joe:
And be on mute. Right! What’s interesting though, is across the board. People say a good meeting is one where everybody participates. And that sounds like agreement until you define participation. Because when you ask the extroverts, what do you mean by participate? Is everybody tells us what you’re thinking. And you ask introverts, how do you define participation? They say, everybody gets a chance to speak if they want to. And that’s very different. So, my, my, with, with all of that, as a backdrop, we can appease both, Jamis, by making time for both, by saying to everybody in the room, there is value. We benefit by spending a little bit of time connecting at a human level, but we’re going to be efficient in the use of that time because we have a lot to accomplish. And we’re going to invite you to participate in that in whatever way is safest and most comfortable for you.

Joe:
And so maybe you bring, I don’t know, a Camaraderie Question of the Week to your meeting from your favorite podcast. And you take 10 minutes to do that at the beginning of the meeting. And you, you, you get some of that social connection and you fill up the gas tank for the extroverts, and then you say, all right, here’s the agenda. Here’s how we’re going to do this. The rest of the way we’re going to move through the taskmaster stuff. And then the one other thing that I advise leaders to do in meeting settings, I’m sorry, Alyssa. I realized I’ve been talking non-stop for like five minutes.

Alyssa:
Um, I’m, I’m, I’m gobbling it all up. Again. The, the water of absolute worthiness and tactic and strategy and all the things that we as leaders need is flowing.

Joe:
And I apologize, cause the question like triggered a mini-MBTI workshop. I’m sorry about that. Um, but we have to coach leaders and introverts, especially on how to set up what they need to participate in the way that’s right for them. And what I mean by that is we need to coach leaders to say at the meeting, what do you think? What is your opinion? I’d like to hear that, but if you need time to process, know that you could come back to me tomorrow morning to share that, right. If there’s a deadline on something, it’s okay, we’re going to talk about it at this meeting now. And then if you go away and you’re cooking on it a little bit, and you have something to add to the discussion, hit a reply-all email before 10:00 AM. Tomorrow, we have to coach leaders to set up those dynamics, to allow extroverts and introverts to thrive. We also have to coach introverts that when people put them on the spot and say, what do you think? We have to coach them to say, “Well, I don’t know yet. Do you want an answer right now? Or do you want an answer I can support? If you give me just a little bit of time to, to cook on this a little bit, I’ll be able to give you my thoughts, my insight, my opinions, but I’m not there yet.”

Alyssa:
Yes. That feels real to me. And to be honest, that’s a space of where I’ve never allowed myself to be is because I always felt like the expectation was that I should know I should have an immediate response. Right? And so, if, as a leader you can speak to that as not being the expectation continually, that’s a place of real power for all of your team.

Joe:
Absolutely. So, thank you to each and every one of you who left comments and who sent us questions, we would love to get more questions from you. You can email us here at the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.

Joe:
And so, we’re going to end today with a question for you. What would your week feel like if you decided to judge yourself as a leader, not by the attitude of the worst person on your team, but by the devotion and the effort of those who consistently give their best? You get credit for that too, you know. We are all victimized by our inner critic who too often wants us to focus on our leadership failures. If we only allow our difficulties to take center stage in our thoughts, we might start to believe we’re not as capable as we are. So, this week be proud of your rock stars and proud that you have created the environment that has revealed their rock-star-ed-ness. And remember for every rocker killing it on stage, there’s a stage manager just off to the side, making sure they are set up for success. Thanks for listening. We hope to see you again soon.

Alyssa:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.