110. The Office Romance Problem + Stop Working on Vacation

Transcript – The Office Romance Problem + Stop Working on Vacation

Joe:
You are the boss and you’ve just discovered that two team members are dating. What do you do? Plus, stop working on vacation. Let’s get after it now on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now, here’s your host, speaker, and author, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Hello again, BossHeroes! Greetings and salutations. Welcome back to the show that is your show. This is the place where we gather to celebrate you, our BossHeroes. What’s a BossHero? Well, if you go to work every day and you try to create the conditions at work for people to thrive, even if you don’t always know what they are or how to do that, well, that makes you a BossHero, and this show is for you. We’re excited that you’re here, and every week we talk about issues related to being a better boss, navigating all the challenges that come with leading people in today’s workplace. Please welcome back to my show, my co-host, executive coach, HR advisor, and triskaidekaphobe, Suzanne Malausky. Welcome back, Suzanne.

Suzanne:
Well, thank you, Joe. It’s wonderful to be here. Hi, BossHeroes. And I can’t even pronounce that word. So, am I, <laugh>, am I?

Joe:
Well, if you’ve not been listening to the show for some time, we started this thing a little while back where whenever I introduce Suzanne, I would put this random thing at the end of it that wouldn’t always necessarily be true. Sometimes it is. And then we would just leave it to Suzanne to tell us whether or not I made something up about her, or actually shared a little nugget about who she is. And this is made up as far as I know. Suzanne, you are not a triskaidekaphobe. Do you know what this is? Did you look it up? Or you just said…

Suzanne:
Like, no, I didn’t even bother. I said, you know what? I’m pitching it back over to Joe. Do tell <laugh>

Joe:
Triskaidekaphobia

Suzanne:
Yeah.

Joe:
Is fear of the number 13.

Suzanne:
Ah, no. I am not a triskaidekaphobe…person.

Joe:
Yes. It’s, it’s not fear of Triscuits, which is what it sounds like. No,

Suzanne:
Triskaidekaphobe

Joe:
Triskaidekaphobe, yes.

Suzanne:
I’m not. I believe in luck. I’m an optimist, but, you know, getting on the 13th floor of the elevator, staying on the condo, it doesn’t bother me at all. It’s all good. Okay. It’s all good. Alright. Or the 13th of an airplane that just makes me special.

Joe:
Okay. Yeah. Or if, like, you draw a number at a party game or something and you draw the number 13, it doesn’t weird you out?

Suzanne:
No, no, no. Absolutely not.

Joe:
Yeah, I’m not really that, I’m not really that way either. I know that actually, there are a lot of people who think the number 13 is quite lucky.

Suzanne:
Yeah. I’m gonna go with that.

Joe:
I’m not one of those either. I’m just like, yeah, it’s a number.

Suzanne:
It’s a number. Okay.

Joe:
Well, as we alluded to in the opening — interesting topic this week, and this topic for me was born out of an HBR article that our intrepid producer Jamie, sent to me that she found that I thought was interesting about how to approach an office romance and how not to, so I, I, I know that what we try to do, as we said in the opening on this show, is help our BossHeroes explore the various challenges that come with leading people. So, inevitably, if you’ve been a leader on a team for a little while, you’re probably gonna encounter some version of this, right? Maybe there’s people flirting with each other, or they start dating, or it’s a serious relationship, and maybe it goes well, and maybe it doesn’t. Have you had this experience, Suzanne, or have you been asked to advise other leaders who were navigating the trickiness of this situation? What do you do when people on the team start getting together?

Suzanne:
Hmm. Well, I, I have to say, I’ve seen this from a couple different angles. Being in HR in that department where, you know, there we are, the upholders and the writers of all policies, <laugh> meant to help people and organizations work better together. So, I’ve seen managers dealing with this. I’ve seen when things haven’t gone so well and I, I, Joe had an office romance myself. So, I have first — scandalous I know — firsthand experience. So, I would like to begin by saying that the policies are there for a reason. Yes. <laugh>

Joe:
Let’s take, let’s go with the HR baseline. Start there.

Suzanne:
Let’s go. Right, right. Straight to the heart of the matter is in the article I think two out of the three scenarios everyone followed the policy if there was one. So, you know, if — wherever you are, make sure you’re very well aware of what the expectations are and how to follow policy if it’s disclosure, those types of things. It’s meant to protect you, all parties involved, the company, so on and so forth. Yes. So, do follow the policy. I think there is a f it’s a, you know, it’s a sticky subject. It’s we are dealing with humans, you know, together. And there’s natural opportunities for people to, you know, find people that are attracted to, or that they wanna build relationships with. So, we’re, we’re fooling ourselves to think it doesn’t happen. Right. I think I like a little bit of the separation of church and state, if you will. you know, it was never my intention to go to work looking for a man, right or for a significant other. And I think that it, you know, you are there to do a job and to be a professional. So, I think that should take priority but also recognize that things happen.

Joe:
Yep, yep. Yep. I, I’m very much in a similar camp. I, some people just a no, never. Like, it’s never appropriate. You should never do it. I would never do it. And I’m not in that camp because it’s, you know, it’s life. Some of the most beautiful, happiest long-term relationships on the planet started because two people met at work. And that’s <laugh>, you know, where else are you gonna meet? You know, it’s hard to go out to a bar these days, and I haven’t been on a dating app because I’ve been married for 17 years, but apparently, that sucks. And so, you know, if you, if you find a connection with somebody that you work with and a romantic, a romantic connection evolves from that. I am not in the camp who would decry that as completely out of bounds. I am in the camp of how do we ensure a minimal amount of potential harm for all parties involved. And, and that’s right. Because we’ve seen it go bad, right? If, if, if the relationship ends up with hurt feelings or difficulty, you know, you can have different factions at work. You can have the inability to collaborate. And so, in general, I don’t, I would not want to outlaw it or put my foot down because let’s be honest, that doesn’t mean it’s gonna end. It’s just gonna go underground. Right. And if, if I’m a supervisor, I would much rather know than not. So, being loudly anti-relationship is, is just gonna create a trust gap between me and my, and my folks. Right. And so, I, I want to be the kind of supervisor that my direct reports would feel comfortable coming to and talking to about the, the situation early. And so, I think that here’s an interesting question around this, Suzanne, that we can play with. What expectations should managers have of how their team members operate in a, in a situation like this? Like, if I wanna ask somebody out on the team, do I need to go ask the boss first? If, if I went out on a first date with someone, is that when I tell the boss, like, when is it the boss’s business to know versus not?

Suzanne:
That’s a great question. Well, I don’t think you need permission to ask anybody out or to go out on a date. I would think at the point where you’re having that same discussion with this potential partner that you’re talking about being exclusive or, or getting serious, then when it has some legs under it or legitimacy <laugh> behind it, then you kind of, if you’re declaring that to each other, then it’s time to turn around and think, well, who else do we need to be sharing this with?

Joe:
Yes. Yes. I, I am very much in the camp that you don’t need to ask your boss for permission, though, if there’s a policy in place, as you alluded to earlier this is where it gets a little bit tricky. You may want to confirm what the policy is with your HR department because you don’t want to ask somebody out on a date, have them say no, and then you got fired for engaging in something that was against the policy. I, I don’t wanna see that happen to anybody, and I don’t think you wanna see that happen to your direct reports. I, I think if you ask somebody at work out and you go on a first date that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to tell me as your boss right then, but if this turns into something, if a date becomes dating, I think I’d wanna know. But I think it’s my responsibility as a supervisor to create the kind of open relationship and trust and mutual respect for one another that would make it easy for that direct report to come to me and just say, hey, I wanna let you in on this. All right. If I’m not showing up as the kind of leader who genuinely cares about my people, then that’s gonna be less likely to happen.

Suzanne:
For sure. And it’s, it’s really odd to say this, but you almost need one instance of it happening so everyone understands how it’s treated. Yeah. Right, right. So, you know, they know if someone else is dating, and oh, did you tell anybody? Did you sign the form? <Laugh>? Right. And sometimes, honestly, Joe, it’s something you disclose to HR and nobody else, not even your supervisor.

Joe:
Right, right. There may be policies to that end. You’re right.

Suzanne:
Right. So absolutely. Do the research on the policy make, I always say, make friends with your HR business partner, <laugh>. Yes. You know, get their guidance, and figure it out if it is your boss that you’re dating, that might be a whole other different conversation. You know, and really thinking through that as a different, different choice. Yeah. Yeah. But on your normal, I ran into somebody on another team, or you know, something like that. Then just make sure you know the policy and you’re taking care of that the right way.

Joe:
And then what you’re doing as a leader is you are showing up in a way that is really about acting in the best interests of everybody involved. Yes. And so, it’s having conversations with this person that are really just about, hey, I care about you. I don’t wanna see any harm come to you. I care about this other person. I don’t wanna see any harm come to them. I also have to care about our team and our customers and our culture. And if this evolves and turns into something that does harm to any of those, we’re gonna need to talk about it. So be open to it, be supportive, but you know, name the truth around the various obligations and responsibilities you have as a supervisor. There is one other thing well, one or two other things that I wanted to mention about this. This was, we’re gonna link to this HBR article that I mentioned as well because there are a couple of really great points in here. One of the caveats that was made in this article that is so important to be explicit about is that there are going to be differences when it comes to LGBTQ employees. Folks who are a part of the queer community may not feel comfortable disclosing a relationship with a coworker. especially because there are states where you can still be fired for being gay. And so, while, while we hope you’re working in a workplace that is inclusive and celebrates that love is love is love the truth is that may not be the case where you work. And so, some people may have to be fully closeted, or some people may have different related to their dating and relationships that require some different considerations because of the social issues related to them.

Suzanne:
Absolutely. And I think all of these scenarios are scenarios each with their own sets of stories, data situations. Yes. Types of relationships, types of people, personalities. So, I think it’s a, from the boss’s perspective, being someone that people can have the right kind of conversation with, that it’s easy for them to follow the policy. Just a little caveat here, I think don’t be awkward about it or in get familiar with the policy. Think through, if you see it coming, think through your reaction or how you might respond. Because the use of humor in the wrong way here. Yes. Out of your, your own awkwardness or your own discomfort is not gonna serve your team or the Well, yes. Right. Let’s not. Yep.

Joe:
And playfulness may not be the path to connection and confidence, right? Say, so is there something you wanna tell me about Stacy? Right. You know, like that, that’s probably not the way to go, you know? No. Be direct, be honest, and don’t, you know, if, if you need to ask this person, whether they’re dating Stacy, sit down and say, Hey I’ve hearing through the grapevine a little bit that you and Stacy are dating. Is that true? You’re not in trouble. I just want to, you know, make sure that we have an open dialogue around that since it could have some impact on us here.

Suzanne:
Right.

Joe:
Good. And see where the conversation goes from there. I have two other caveats. <Laugh>, we’re, we’re caveating this Caveating. Yes. But it’s such a, it is a complex issue. One caveat is that there’s an exception to the rule for me about where dating is. Okay. I don’t think it’s ever Okay when it’s supervisor, right? Like supervisee, right? There’s a power dynamic there. You run in… into potential issues of harassment. If two people at work fall in love and one of them has direct supervisory authority over the other, oh, that is tricky. And long term, it’s probably gonna be best for one of those people to go someplace else.

Suzanne:
I agree.

Joe:
The other caveat here is about asking people out, and I loved this little note in this HBR article that gave the example about policies that companies have that, that just sort of crystallizes what you can and can’t do. So, for example, apparently at Facebook and at Google, you can only ask a coworker out once, and if the person says no or gives you an ambiguous response, like, oh, I’m sorry, I can’t, I’m busy. You’re not allowed to ask again. You know, and these, these, these kinds of policies, that sounds so granular, doesn’t it? Here’s what you can say. Here’s when you can ask, here’s how often you’re allowed to ask. But I love this because it cuts down on a lot of the harassment that women might experience, especially in the workplace at the hands, men who think they’re just, you know, being persistent.

Suzanne:
Yeah. And, and, and women to men who just think they’re being playful or cute, right?  Yep. Both ways. But yeah, the stories, the stories, and scenarios we’ve looked at, you know, for my training in HR around these very issues that, you know, you know, and it, it connects for me back to the idea of boundaries. Yes, you’re here to work. If, if someone, you know, asks somebody out and they, like you said, say no or they’re not interested, let it go. Yes. You know move on. You’re, you do, do job number one is your job. Yeah. and I, I like to the idea that does make other people uncomfortable. Yeah. doing those types of things, whether it’s asking people out, joking about, asking them out, going out with them and being open about it, you know, keep in mind at all times the impact you’re having on the other around you, the ripple effect, whether you’re dating or how you lead, or how you, you know, work as a coworker, your behaviors matter and they impact other people around you. So always, always be mindful of that.

Joe:
Absolutely. And for the BossHeroes listening, the best time to prepare for this is when you’re not dealing with it. Yes. The time and energy that you invest into honest, transparent, sophisticated relationships with each of your direct reports, that’s gonna pay off later. So that if this does crop up in your organization or on your team, the time and energy you’ve put into earning that person’s trust and demonstrating that you care about them as a person, that’s when that’s gonna pay off. Because it’ll be less likely that these folks will be keeping secrets from you. It makes it more likely that if you have to have an uncomfortable conversation with this person, it’s gonna be navigable for everybody involved. So, keep building those relationships now, cuz they will pay off later.

Suzanne:
Great point.

Joe:
All right. We would love to hear from you about any questions you have related to this issue or any other struggles you’re having as a leader of people. You can email us your questions to the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com. We love hearing your comments, your observations, and especially your questions because they bring the real-world scenarios that so many of you are facing right. To this show for us to dissect and discuss. So, if you have a question, thoughts, insights, or issues, email us bossbetternow@gmail.com.

Joe:
All right, Suzanne, that brings us to the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
We know bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier at work for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why here on the show each week, we give you a question you can use at meetings at one-on-ones in the hallway, on the Zoom to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. Our question this week, kind of an interesting one — Suzanne, what is something you stopped doing that you’d like to start again?

Suzanne:
Well, the one thing I, I have a little regret over this, so it makes me a little sad. But I’ll be motivated to try it again or do it again or make the time for it. And that’s volunteering. So, over the past five years, I have recorded multiple books for the Carnegie. They have a new name now; I can’t think of it. Carnegie Association for the Blind and Visually Impaired. And so, I read books and they get recorded and they go into their, in the Library of Congress and people all over the world can request those books. And so, it’s just my little way of using a kind of a gift that I have that can help others who, who don’t have the, the site that they need to be able to read. So, I just lost time. I haven’t made, made it a priority lately, so to try again.

Joe:
That’s a lovely answer. And it’s in service to making a difference in the lives of others. I love it. <Laugh>. And it, it lets our listeners in on a little secret that they probably picked up on just by hearing your work here on the show, <laugh>, but if you didn’t know this, Suzanne is a professional voiceover artist. You’ve been doing that for a while, right?

Suzanne:
I have. And what a joy it’s been. I started out by taking classes Oh. And loved doing it. And had taken a class in undergrad that kind of sparked my interest years and years ago. So, when I felt I had some time and I saw a class, I took it, and then I was introduced to this opportunity to volunteer to kind of buildup on my experience and take it from there. So, I miss doing that. I miss the people there, so I need to go back.

Joe:
That’s great. And your answer’s kind of along the lines of my answer of something that like maybe not everybody knows about me but would come out in a conversation like this. So, something that I’ve stopped doing that I’d like to start again, is playing my guitar. Oh. I used to have a regular, like a church gig where I would play music on Sundays. And I, my, my bachelor’s degree is in music years, and years ago in grad school, I used to play at coffee shops and do open mics and things like that. And I’m still good around a campfire, don’t get me wrong, but it’s been, it’s been pretty rare for me lately to pick up the guitar and it’s, you know, just like you said, it’s other things take over. We got three kids, there’s a book there’s work, there’s life, there’s the house, there’s soccer six days a week. Oh my God. But, you know, it’s hard to find time for those things and if we, if we put the guitar away Right, it’s out of sight, it becomes out of mind. So, I actually recently pulled it out and, and set it up in our basement and I, I need to get back down there, even if it’s just once, you know, every two weeks or so, just do a little strumming and, and there’s something very healing and cathartic about that.

Suzanne:
Well, yeah, I was gonna say, it’s good for the soul, but it’s also good for our brains as we get older that we’re, you know, exercising different parts of them or, or going back into the memory bank that we have of what those chords are Yeah. And how to, how to play. Absolutely. I play flute yeah. As well, Joe. And so, I do pull it, you know, it’s out, up in my bedroom every Christmas and then when no one’s here, I’ll play a few Christmas songs and then Nice. Then I put it away. Yeah. <laugh> <laugh>.

Joe:
So, what you’re saying is we need to give you like some other holidays, music books, like here’s the Great Arbor Day playlist, and here’s some patriotic songs for the 4th of July. And like, let’s flaut. Right, right. You know, let’s flaut to America the beautiful <laugh>

Suzanne:
<Laugh>. I could do that. Yeah. July… July’s coming there. It’s coming up. And I have an app where you can actually it’ll play this song and the music at the same time, so you can play right along.

Joe:
Play along with it.

Suzanne:
Yes. Nice. So…

Joe:
And my wife’s a flutist, I think. I think you did you know that?

Suzanne:
I think we’ve talked, I think, I think we knew that way back when we first met each other. Yes.

Joe:
Yep. Good stuff. And this is a fun question that you can use because you end up drawing out these little things about people that maybe you didn’t know, and then all of a sudden, some people find things in common together. Like if, if Suzanne and I, like all of a sudden, are we, are we jamming at the company picnic between guitar and flute? If we work together, maybe that happens, right?

Suzanne:
<Laugh>

Joe:
And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
All right, folks, I’m not sure if you know this, but twice a month I publish our BossBetter Email Newsletter. It is the primary way I keep in touch with folks who are subscribers to the work that I do, and you can sign up for the Boss Better email newsletter by texting the word BossHero to 66 8 66. This is where you will get twice a month videos, articles, encouragement, and updates from me on being a better boss. That email is also where we announce special events, discounts, and happenings exclusively for people who are in our boss hero community. So, if you are not subscribed, stop what you’re doing, pull out your cell phone, text the word boss hero, all one word to 6 68 66, and I’ll see you at your email inbox.

Joe:
All right, Suzanne, that brings us to one of my favorite segments. Stop it.

Joe:
Summer is around the bend, friends, and I know you, I know you, I know what’s going to happen. You’re gonna get in your car and you’re gonna drive a long way to the beach or the mountains or the lake. You’re gonna go on this vacation that you have been counting the days for this one week, a year where you get to get away and you’re not going to get away. You’re gonna check your email, you’re gonna call into the office because somebody needed something. You’re just gonna pop into this zoom meeting real quick. It won’t take long. You are going to work on vacation. And I’m here to tell you, knock that stuff off. I was, I was gonna say a harsher word, but it’s a family-friendly show, Suzanne. Okay. Let me tell you why you are doing no good put to both yourself and your employer when you work on vacation.

Joe:
And first of all, let’s call it what it is. If you’re working on vacation, that ain’t a vacation, that’s just a very expensive commute, and you are not getting the restorative effects of a true vacation. We all need to break away physically and mentally from the things that demand our time, emotion, and attention. You never fully break away if you’re just popping into that Zoom meeting, answering a couple emails, calling in every once in a while. I want to encourage you to do whatever it takes right now in the weeks leading up to your summer vacation to put whatever helps support boundaries, systems, or policies in place to ensure that when you leave the office or log off of your work platform, that you don’t have to touch it again until your vacation is over. Maybe that requires you to have a pointed conversation with your boss about how you will not be working on vacation.

Joe:
Maybe that requires you to do a little bit of prep work and planning and maybe some micro training for the person who’s gonna be on coverage for you when you’re gone. Maybe that requires you to put an out-of-office email when you’re out on your vacation that says, I will be away for the week of date to date. At no time during this period will emails be answered. If your matter is of importance, please direct it to this person at this address. Should you need my assistance with your issue, please resend your email after this date. And I will respond as soon as I can when I am back in the office, set up the idea that no, I’m not just gonna come back and navigate 347 emails because that just is a soul-crushingly, awful way to come back from vacation. That’s why a lot of people don’t even go on vacation. The number one reason people don’t go on vacation, fear of falling behind at work. Put these pieces into place. Now, whatever it takes to be able to truly unplug, and I’m telling you that vacation will have a greater impact on you than you can possibly imagine. And if your employer pushes back, you can make the argument that you are going to be better for them if they, you actually get away when you’re supposed to be getting away. So do whatever it takes to stop working on vacation. Stop it.

Joe:
All right. Suzanne <laugh>, thank you for letting me get that out of my system. Good. I also am very guilty as charged <laugh>

Suzanne:
<Laugh>

Joe:
Of someone who will check their email on vacation and, and as a self-employed person. Like I’m definitely guilty of this. Do you struggle with this?

Suzanne:
Less and less as I get older. Yeah. Right. Or learn that many of the fears associated with checking in are self-induced <laugh>. Yes. Right. What you’re worrying about is, is not what you need to be worrying about. And the realization that people are okay with you on vacation too, that they expect it, they don’t say yes, you know if they get that reply email, they’re not offended. They’re like, okay, good to know. Yep. Right. Yep. And look forward to resending my email next week, whatever. So, know that people are, they want the same treatment when they’re gone. Yeah. So, people are much, I think that was more my paranoia of letting someone down or being judged or for not getting back to them. And just as my confidence grew and experience has taught me, it’s, it’s really going to be okay. It’s going to be okay.

Joe:
And you make such a great point. You know, I say this with love, BossHeroes, but some of y’all are just not as important as you think you are.

Suzanne:
Right. <laugh>,

Joe:
Right. Like, you know, you can step away for a few days. The place is not going to burn down. Some of this really is self-inflicted. I mean, we’ve seen it, I know you’ve seen this, Suzanne, where supervisors create these sort of co-dependent relationships where they don’t foster independence and critical thinking among their team because they wanna be needed, they need to be relied on. their measure of success and value to the company is that I need to be there to answer questions and tell people what to do. And so that, that’s a failure of leadership. That is a self-inflicted wound where if you have enough staffing and you can’t step away for even a short period of time, then we haven’t adequately prepared the people around us to know what they need to know at a higher level. right?

Suzanne:
That’s right. And what a great opportunity for someone to step up Yeah. Or to, for you to instill trust by granting trust while you’re away. And yes, you know, of course, you can be found in an emergency, but chances are your team, you’ve been doing your job they’ll rally to the occasion, everything’s gonna be just fine.

Joe:
Yeah. And you know what? You might just have to tell the people who are gonna be leading things in your absence, I trust you. you’re not gonna screw anything up. there’s, you know, I trust your judgment. Make the best decisions you can in my absence. And if something goes, hey, wire, we’ll fix it when I get back.

Suzanne:
And mean it.

Joe:
And then mean it. Yes. Well, I wish all of you listening a lovely summer vacation without interruptions from work. Of true restoration, and hopefully, you can begin putting the pieces in place now to make that possible.

Joe:
That’s our show for this week, BossHeroes. If you liked what you heard, please make sure you take a minute to hit that subscribe button. Then new episodes of our podcast will show up on your device as that little red notification number every time they are published. In the meantime, thank you for listening, and thank you for all that you do to care for so many.

Suzanne:
The show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.