107. The Great Boss Factor + You Told Gen Z To Do This

Transcript – Episode 107: The Great Boss Factor + You Told Gen Z To Do This

Joe:
So exactly what does it take for an employee to describe their leader as a great boss? Plus, these Gen Z workers today are just so different…or are they? Join me now, on Boss Better Now.

Jamie:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now here’s your host, speaker, and author, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Welcome back, BossHeroes. Happy late April. Suzanne is off this week, so you’re stuck with just me. I am flying solo, and I will admit I am flying solo at a time when it’s a little bit chaotic. My travel schedule for speaking is a little bit crazy. I’ve been in five different states in the past 11 days. We are also one week away from the release of my new book, Employalty, which is exciting and admittedly it’s exhausting. If you have paid any attention to what we’ve talked about here on the show about all of the buildup and the hype that has to go into a book launch, it’s because pre-orders and all of the early sales of a book – up through that first week of launch – are the numbers that matter most. You’ve probably heard me say that when you buy a book is actually a more powerful way to support an author than just buying the book.

Joe:
And it’s because we’ve gotta push out all these emails and we’ve gotta, we we’re just doing so much — lots of podcast interviews and, you know, it is easy in the midst of all of that when trying to get people to just take one minute to order your book right now, it’s really easy to lose sight of what’s important. And what’s important is that we’re trying to help people solve real-world challenges related to finding and keeping devoted employees. And there’s an acknowledgment that needs to happen, that these are not simple issues, that they’re complex, and that a single book isn’t going to be the end all cure all. But when we acquire knowledge and insight and activate around a blueprint that is evidence-based, we really can move forward and move the needle. And so that’s what I decided to do with this week’s episode, was really dial in on that insight and that help that we wrote about in this book.

Joe:
If you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you’ve probably heard me talk about the three factors of Employalty. We know based on all the research that we’ve done, that commitment and retention appear in an organization and among people when employees are in their ideal job, doing meaningful work, for a great boss. And this book that’s coming out really dives into all the dimensions of each of those factors, all the things that we have to get right, and the way that those factors make up a kind of internal psychological scorecard that every employee has. And I want to talk today about the great boss factor and what it takes for an employee to describe their leader as a great boss. You know, there are literally dozens of things we have to get right as leaders before an employee is gonna point to us and say man, I’ve got a great boss.

Joe:
And we also know that the things that we do have to focus on are kind of fleeting, right? We can get a lot of things right for a long time, but if we mess up one thing we can damage that relationship, damage that perception. It, it’s not out of bounds to suggest that the path to being a great boss is both complicated and fragile. But I think we’ve zeroed in on the factors that matter most. And so, follow along with me here, if you will. Let’s start out by having you think about the best boss that you’ve ever had. I hope somebody’s face came to mind for you, and that you can picture that person in your mind’s eye. If, if you’ve never worked for somebody that you would call a great boss, just think about somebody who was a tolerable boss or somebody that you didn’t dislike.

Joe:
But hopefully when I said, think of the best boss you ever worked with someone came to mind that showed up for you in a way that was helpful or meant something. So, as you think about this person, here’s what I want you to do next. What are the two or three qualities or characteristics that made this person a great boss? What words spring to mind for you? When I ask this question in keynotes or at workshops, I’ll take a minute and draw out all of the different answers. And as you can imagine, the people in the room will say they were helpful, supportive, they respected my expertise and experience. They pushed me and challenged me. They were warm, they were approachable, they mentored me, they advocated for me. They gave me opportunities. They, they helped correct develop my career.

Joe:
I can ask this question in a room full of people, and as you can imagine, I could pull out a hundred different answers, which is fun as a speaker, because then I’ll say, all right, I hope you wrote that down. Go do all of that. And we got done early <laugh>. But it’s not that simple, is it? Of course not. But take a minute to think about the handful of qualities or characteristics that made the person you thought of a great boss. Here’s the interesting thing, the qualities or characteristics that came to mind for you, really didn’t have a lot to do with the person that you are thinking of. The qualities or characteristics that came to mind are actually what you needed from that person at that time. And in that place, being a great boss is about meeting people where they are and understanding that as people, we need some things from the people who lead us and who direct us.

Joe:
And we really only find out what those things are by developing a relationship with that person and by caring about that person beyond just the tasks and duties of their jobs. So those qualities and characteristics weren’t as much about them. They were about you. That’s what you needed from that person. And they probably showed up in a way that met you where you were at that time and in that place in your professional life. And the result is because they showed up in that way consistently for you, they moved from having what is called positional authority over you, to actually developing what is called relational authority. So, there’s some psychology here as to what moves people to want to take action on behalf of someone else. And it’s rooted in a lot of the psychological theories that I sometimes nerd out around like self-determination theory.

Joe:
And, you know, we wrote about this in the book about what leads people to say, my boss is a great boss. What moves people to want to act in service of or alongside a leader? And a lot of what pushes people to act in that way is rooted in what’s called relational authority. So, let’s explain this. Positional authority, authority is the power that you are granted as a leader by your title, right? Because you were named manager or a named supervisor, you have positional authority. The title alone grants you the power, for example, to give people directions, to hire people, to fire people, to set schedules right, to give feedback. There is a certain amount of authority that comes with simply being designated as a person in charge. And positional authority is what moves people to act because they have to, right? My boss told me I have to do this, and I have to do it.

Joe:
That’s positional authority. Relational authority, however, is the authority that you have over someone, the power to influence that person as a result of the relationship that you’ve built with that person. So, think of it this way, I want you to imagine that you are sitting in a restaurant and the waiter drops off your meal. You’re sitting at this restaurant with someone that you know and love. Maybe it’s a close friend, a coworker, maybe it’s your partner, maybe it’s one of your kids. And after the waiter drops off your meal, you reach for the salt, and you start heavily salting your meal. Now, I want you to imagine that the waiter notices this and steps back toward your table, and says, I’m sorry, ma’am. Listen. I really think you ought to be careful about the amount of salt that you’re putting on your food. It’s really not good for you. I’m worried that that’s gonna do harm. You really should cut back.

–[cv What’s your reaction <laugh> in that moment? I don’t know about you, but I’m probably sitting there thinking, excuse me, I, I posed this scenario to an audience that I was speaking to in Atlanta last week, and I said, if, if the waiter said this to you, what would you be thinking? And a woman in the back yelled, mind you of business <laugh>. And that’s about right. You’d probably be thinking, okay, perfect stranger, thank you for inserting yourself into you know, how I want to eat my food and, and my business as that audience member said, you would probably feel like that was a bit of a violation, and you certainly wouldn’t be moved to action because of what that person said. Now, imagine that in that same scenario, after the waiter dropped off your meal and you started heavily salting it, that it wasn’t the waiter who said something, it was the person you were with, your kid, your friend, your partner.

Joe:
You started salting your meal, and this person who cares about you and is involved in your life said, hey, listen, I think maybe you ought to take it easy on the salt there. That’s really not good for you. I’m, I’m a little worried about you. You may wanna cut back. Now granted, some of us might still yell mind your business, but the truth is, if somebody that cared about us and with whom we had an established relationship spoke up in that way, we’d probably hear it. If nothing, we’d probably receive it as an act of caring. And yeah, maybe it would motivate us or move us to give some thought to change. This is the difference, the difference between position, authority, and relational authority. Relational authority is the influence that someone has over us because we know they care about us because they’re invested in us.

Joe:
Because there’s mutual respect. There’s a bond there. Here’s another example. I asked you a few minutes ago to think of the best boss that you ever worked with. And so, unfortunately, now I need to ask you to picture the worst boss you’ve ever had. I’m sorry, I know that’s probably not pleasant, but take a minute to think about the worst boss that you’ve ever had and imagine that you’re working for him or her and late on a Thursday, he or she comes to you and says, hey, I know it’s short notice, but I’m gonna need you to work on Saturday. Let’s assume that you were supposed to have Saturday off this bad boss comes to you on Thursday, late in the day, and says, hey, I’m gonna need you to work on Saturday. How are you feeling? If you’re like most people, you’re probably a whole combination of annoyed, angry, frustrated.

Joe:
You’re probably doing that whole cost-benefit analysis, right? Can I say no? What happens to me if I refuse? Can I get out of this? You have no desire to do this, but you might realize that you have to. Maybe you have no choice. Now let’s change that scenario with one small tweak. Instead of it being the worst boss you’ve ever worked for, let’s go back and picture the best boss you’ve ever had. And imagine that late on a Thursday, he or she came to you and said, hey, I know it’s short notice and I’m sorry, but I’m gonna need you to work on Saturday. Now, what are you thinking? How is your reaction different from when it was a boss that you didn’t have a good relationship with? If you’re like most people, you still might be a little disappointed or frustrated because maybe you had plans for Saturday.

Joe:
But a lot of people in this scenario will tell me that if this is a boss who I know cares about me and that I respect, I’m probably doing a similar cost-benefit analysis in my mind that goes a different way. I’m probably thinking, oh man, I really don’t wanna work on Saturday. But you know, I know she wouldn’t ask unless she was desperate. You know, I, I, I know that she cares about my work-life boundaries and about making sure I get time away on the weekends. So, if she’s coming to me and asking me this, I know she might really be stuck. And you know what? She’s had my back in a lot of different ways and really gone to bat for me a couple of different times. And, you know, maybe this is a way that I can help her and, and step up and, you know, pitch in.

Joe:
So, I’ll do it. Do you hear the difference in the first scenario you come to work on Saturday because you have to. In the second scenario, you come to work on a Saturday because you choose to. This is the difference between positional authority and relational authority. It’s why the best bosses invest in developing sophisticated relationships with the people in their charge because it’s how we exercise influence. It’s what leads people to want to act alongside of us or in service to what we’re asking. So how do you develop relational authority? How do you become that person that someone points to and says, I’ve got a great boss. Yeah, there are a lot of things we need to get right, but in my research for this book, we identified three experiences that employees need to have again and again with their bosses. We call them trust, coaching, and advocacy.

Joe:
Trust is a two-way street. Do I grant trust as a leader? And do I earn trust as a leader? When I don’t grant trust, I’m a micromanager. When I don’t earn trust, it’s because I don’t demonstrate caring or I’m not competent. People don’t understand or respect that I have experience or authority. Maybe I’m a know-it-all. Trust is sort of the secret sauce of great leadership. It’s an essential ingredient. You have to grant and earn trust. The second dimension to being a great boss is coaching. We’ve talked about coaching a ton on this show. Coaching is the essential leadership skill. It’s not feedback, it’s not giving advice, it’s not mentoring. Coaching is very specifically asking open-ended questions of people to mind them for their insights, their creativity, their ideas, and their options. It’s a very specific kind of conversation that when employees have it again and again with their direct supervisors, it enhances commitment, and it transforms that relationship.

Joe:
And advocacy is our catchall word for a whole host of behaviors that are around acting in the employee’s best interests, because that’s what an advocate does, right? If I’m an advocate for someone or someplace or something, I act as an advocate in their best interests. So, advocacy as a leader involves not just caring about the tasks and duties of someone’s job, but who they are outside of work and their life outside of work. Not just caring about what they’re doing when they’re working with us but caring about their career and the trajectory of that career. It’s having the compassion and the interest to ask about their lives outside of work and to recall those things and to know their story.

Joe:
These are the acts of a great boss. And it turns out that these are things that don’t always come naturally to leaders. These are the things that we wrote about in the book, in-depth, the habits and routines, and patterns that leaders need to embrace. If they wanna find and keep devoted employees, if they want to turn their organization into a destination workplace, among the many things we need to get right as bosses, we need to engage in trust, coaching, and advocacy. If you’re interested in learning more about how to do that, then I encourage you to go online and order a copy of Employalty – How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work, which if you ordered it right now, will be in your hands in just days.

Joe:
All right, friends, that brings us to the Camaraderie Question of the Week, which I have to do solo today. I don’t have anybody to talk to about this. I mean, except you. And I’m glad you’re here and I’m glad you’re listening. The question I have this week is actually one that I got from a friend of mine while he was interviewing me on his podcast. So, with everything going on with the book, I have been on somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 or 60 podcasts in the past two or so months. And as you can imagine, I’ve gotten asked a lot of different questions and some of them are quite fun. And my friend Marcus, who, Marcus Engel, who is a compassion and courage advocate in healthcare, and he has a phenomenal podcast called Compassion and Courage: Conversations in Healthcare that you should check out if you’re in that space.

Joe:
At the end of his podcast the other day when he was interviewing me, he asked me a really fun question, and here it is. He said, think back to your high school days when you’re in a car with your friends and the windows are down and the radio is blaring what music is playing. He basically wanted to know what the soundtrack to your high school years was. I thought this was a fun question. I think this is a fun question you could use at meetings or at teams just to lighten the mood to, to it’s gonna date people a little bit, but that’s okay. You might also find some things in common. My answer to him was a whole hodgepodge of things. I told him that, you know, for me, I’m 46, so my high school years were the early nineties, and that meant that blaring on the radio was all the alternative and grunge music.

Joe:
That was huge at the time, listening to Pearl Jam, listening to Nirvana, to Sound Garden, to Collective Soul. If I still listen to the Lithium Channel on Sirius XM Satellite Radio because that’s that whole era. At the same time though, I remember listening to hip hop and, and Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg’s album. The Chronic came out in the early nineties, and we played that constantly. And this was also happening at a time when I fell in love with performing and with musical theater. And so, with my choir and show choir friends, yes, I was a show choir kid. Yes, I still to this day believe I have world-class jazz hands that I can deploy. We were listening to Phantom and Les Mis and Miss Saigon, and, and then that evolved when I got to college and to Rent.

Joe:
And just a ton of shows that were really popular at the time. So, my high school soundtrack was a whole host of genres, right? I remember the Guns N Roses Use Your Illusion albums when they came out were huge and, and really just incredibly popular. And I still listen to those to this day. So that’s a fun question. Take that to your next meeting, whether it’s remote or in person. Think back to your high school years when you’re in the car with the windows down with your friends and the radio is blaring. What are you listening to? In other words, what was the soundtrack to your high school years? That’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
All right, folks, I thought it would be fun today for me to share with you the answer to one of the most common questions that I have been asked as I’ve been on stages and doing workshops these last few months and talking about Employalty, talking about what it takes to find and keep devoted employees, talking about this blueprint that I wrote about in the book, this framework of Ideal Job, Meaningful Work, and Great Boss. One of the questions that I keep getting, and one of the ideas that sort of inherently baked into this question is how do generational differences factor into what it takes to find and keep talented people? And then it sort of evolves into this whole conversation about how, you know, Gen Zers just want something different. It’s different now than it was for us who are a little bit older and, and it doesn’t seem like we want the same things anymore.

Joe:
There’s this massive spotlight that is shown on the idea that what younger workers coming in behind us care about or how they operate is so grossly different from how we operate as workers or as leaders. And I will tell you, I don’t necessarily buy into that for a couple of reasons. And so, here’s how I’ve been answering that question. First, we have to acknowledge that the criticisms we have of the people who come in behind us who are younger are almost always the exact same criticisms that the generation ahead of us had of us when we arrived. The criticism of youth is a generational cycle. It is completely normal for people who have been established in the workforce for a while. To look at new workers and say, boy, they’re entitled, boy, they’re lazy boy, their work ethic just isn’t what mine is. They ask for things that I never would’ve asked for when I was that age, and I’m sure it feels that way, but you were the exact same way.

Joe:
What I would argue and what I’ve been telling audiences is that it’s not so much that younger workers are different, it’s that their timing is different. Think about where you’re at in your professional life and what you’ve learned about work, about wages, about bosses. We know, and we see this, especially in baby boomers, that older workers, folks who, I mean, I’m Gen X technically, so baby boomers, we’re talking now about people who are largely in their sixties, but even true for Gen Xers who are largely in their late forties and fifties now, we’ve climbed the ladder and paid our dues, right? And a lot of us didn’t complain. And now we’re getting into the later stages of our career, and we’ve started to pay more attention to what we find fulfilling — to how our jobs fit into our lives, to what’s important to us.

Joe:
We actually see a pattern. Generational experts have studied this, and they have seen a pattern, especially among baby boomers of people who retire and then go and do what they want to do. We see baby boomers who say, I’m, I’m gonna retire, but I’m gonna go start my own part-time business or a side hustle, or I’m gonna go volunteer for this cause or this organization that I care about. They’ve spent a professional life doing what they had to do, and now I’m gonna go do what I want to do. And the same is true for some of us in gen, in Gen X as well. But along the way, think about the conversations that you’ve been having with your kids, with your nieces and nephews, with younger people in your orbit. We’ve been telling them over and over again, that work is not the only thing to pay attention to.

Joe:
Think about the advice that you’ve given the younger folks that you care about in your life. You’ve probably said, hey, listen, you spend most of your waking hours at work, you better find something that you like. Hey, bad bosses are a dime, a dozen, a dozen. Pay attention. If you find a good one. Stay with that person. Hey, by the way, you better ask for more money when you get a job offer, because if you don’t get it coming through the door, you’re not gonna get it. Guess what? Friends? They listened. They’re doing exactly what we learned are the right things to do at work. They listened and paid attention to the experience that we got from our years early years in the workforce, and now they’re acting on that. I was just at a, a small corporate event that I spoke at a couple weeks ago in upstate New York and was having a conversation at the table with an executive who said, you know, I would’ve never asked for extra money when I got a job offer.

Joe:
I would’ve never asked for two weeks off before my start date so that I could, you know, I was just so happy to get the offer that yes, whatever you want, I’ll take it. And I said to this gentleman, you know, but how many times have you given advice to younger folks who you care about that was really rooted in paying attention to their quality of life and really rooted in leveraging their circumstances when they were going to an organization that wanted to hire them. And he said- you’re absolutely right. I have told the, the quote-unquote kids, he used the word kids. I have told the kids in my life that they need to ask for what they want and that this is a moment when they can get it. So, I would argue friends that it’s not that the generations are that different, it’s that the timing is different.

Joe:
These younger folks who are coming in the workforce, people who I would say are below 30 are asking for things that we’ve long known are important to ask for too, but maybe we never did. They’ve been paying attention to the advice that we’ve given them. They’ve also figured out after watching us for the past 20, 30 years, navigate increasing workloads, stagnant wages, difficult coworkers, rude customers, complex, and sometimes limited benefits, packages, struggles with work-life balance. They’ve watched all and they’ve said, I will not allow my job to take over my life. I want my job to complement my life. I also wanna work for an organization whose mission I care about, an organization that’s socially responsible, who is concerned with being a good citizen in the world. These are the things that matter to us all, but they’re being advocated for more voraciously by younger folks coming through the door because we told them to.

Joe:
All right, folks, that’s the show this week. Thanks for hanging out with me solo. I enjoyed our time together. I hope that with just a couple of days until the book’s release, if you’re one of these folks who has emailed me and come up to me at events and said, Joe, I’m so excited I’m gonna get your book. I can’t wait to read it. Can we take, gonna get out of that equation? Can you take a moment right now? If you’re walking the dog or cooking dinner or listening, you’re at your computer, just reach over and, and grab your iPhone, grab your Android device navigate on over to Amazon, and search Employalty – E M P L O Y A L T Y. Or if you wanna support your local independent bookstore, head over to bookshop.org,    B O O K S H O P.org.

Joe:
Type in my name Joe Mull or employee and pre-order the book right now. It’ll be in your hands in a couple days and you’re showing some love to your local independent, small-business bookstore. We love doing that as well. When you get the book, I would love to hear your thoughts about it. You can tag me on social media. Just use the hashtag #employalty and you know, take a picture with the book, or send a little note that says, hey, I just got started. Or shoot me an email at bossbetternow@gmail.com. This book has been nearly two years in the making. It’s about to land in everybody’s hands here for the rest of the world. And I really just can’t wait to hear what you think of it. One final note for you. We’ve got an exciting surprise for you next week.

Joe:
So next week is launch week. And so, what we’ve decided to do, I guess it’s not really a surprise since I’m going to tell you exactly what it is for next week’s episode, we are going to be sharing with you a recording of my employee keynote in front of an audience of about 4,000 people. So, you will get to hear the jokes, you will get to hear the framework. You will hear me busting up some of the myths that are out there about hiring. And you will get to hear what many of the audiences that I get to speak in front of, get to hear around creating a more humane employee experience and making work, work for all. So that’s coming next week. I hope you’ll look forward to it. I hope you’ll tune in and listen. I hope you’ll go ahead and pre-order the book and let us know what you think of it once you start diving in. In the meantime, thank you all for all that you do to care for so many. Be well, BossHeroes.

Jamie:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.