102. What Kills Employee Morale and Retention + Stop Being So Hard on Yourself

Transcript -Episode 102: What Kills Employee Morale and Retention + Stop Being So Hard on Yourself

Joe:
There’s a silent killer of morale and retention that’s been ever-present in workplaces for years. I’ll tell you what it is in an exclusive excerpt from my new book Employalty, plus stop being so hard on yourself. Oh, and we have a really big announcement. There is so much happening now on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. The show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now, here’s your host, speaker, and author Joe Mull.

Joe:
Welcome back, BossHeroes to the show that aspires to be food for the boss’s soul. Thank you for showing up with us this week and thank you for playing your part in helping us fulfill our mission of filling the world with better bosses. If you didn’t know, an employee’s boss is the single most influential factor in the employee experience. That’s why we call you BossHeroes. Because if you go to work every day and you strive to create the conditions at work for people to thrive, even if you don’t always know how that’s an act of service. At times, it is an act of sacrifice. And in my mind, that makes you a hero, a BossHero, to be specific. And by the way, if you’re relatively new to our show here let me share with you what I have shared with others about the word “boss”, which is that I have no hang-ups about the word “boss”.

Joe:
That doesn’t mean we brag that I’m somebody’s boss, but sometimes we get into these intellectual debates on like LinkedIn about how the word “boss” is bad and leader is better, and like manager and supervisor are somewhere in between. And I think that’s a bunch of hooey. And the reason I think it’s a bunch of hooey is — I mean in part because I get corrected all the time, and that gets a little old, — but because “boss” is a conversational word that your employees use about you when you’re not in the room. If you just hired somebody new and they go home a couple of nights after working for you for the first few weeks on this job, and their neighbor comes over and says, Hey, how’s your new job? And they start talking about it, at some point that neighbor’s probably also gonna ask, Hey, how’s your new boss? What do you think? And that employee of yours is not going to stop the conversation at that point and say, Ooh, listen, that is not a nice word. We do not use that word in this house. Sir, please fix your filthy mouth. We refer to them <laugh> as Chief Motivation Officers. Thank you very much. That’s what we’re gonna call my leader. They’re my leader. That’s not how it works. Conversationally, the people who work for you, if somebody walks into your office tomorrow and says, can I talk to your boss? They’re gonna be like, yeah, she’s right there. Right? They’re not gonna correct that person for saying a bad word. So, I don’t think we should waste our energy insisting that the word boss is bad. I think our energy is better spent learning how to not be a bad boss. Let me step down off my soapbox and welcome back to the show <laugh>, my fabulous co-host, HR advisor, and executive coach Suzanne Malausky. Welcome, my friend.

Suzanne:
Thank you very much, Joe. It also should be a reminder for our listeners that as people’s boss, you probably are the most talked about person at the dinner table. So, no doubt, listen to this advice and apply it. So, what they have to say about you is actually positive.

Joe:
That is my longest-running joke as a keynote speaker. I have opened more keynotes than I can count when I go on stage. They say, you know, please welcome speaker, author, and recovering HR professional, Joe Mull. And I walk out, and I’ve said, by a show of hands — How many of you here today are someone’s boss? And you know, the whole room raises their hands. And I’ll say, congratulations. You are the topic of dinner conversation at other people’s houses. And it always gets a laugh because it’s true.

Suzanne:
<Laugh>. It’s true. It is true. That’s why I continually use it. Sorry.

Joe:
Are you using the joke? No, it’s fine. Go get your laugh.

Suzanne:
Yeah, and I don’t remember where I got it from. Sorry.

Joe:
Yeah, no, that’s okay. 

Suzanne:
Yeah, that’s good. It’s a good one.

Joe:
I’m okay with that. It works every time too, doesn’t it?

Suzanne:
It does, it does.

Joe:
<Laugh>. Well, listen, each week in the run-up to the May 9th release of my new book Employalty, we’ve decided to share exclusive excerpts and insights about what it takes in this new age of work from the book to find and keep devoted employees. And so, we are gonna give some of this content from the book to you, our loyal listeners, before it’s available to the public. And today we’re talking about what’s been killing morale and retention for years. And in a word, it’s dehumanization. Let me share a little bit about what I wrote about this topic in the book, and then Suzanne and I are gonna chat about it.

Joe:
Dehumanization is the perception and treatment of people in ways that ignore and diminish their intrinsic worth. As humans in the workplace, dehumanization occurs when workers are viewed solely based on their role or functionality. Dehumanization leads us to think of employees not as persons, but as a commodity. We refer to our workforce as human capital. We rationalized that it’s acceptable to have people on our teams and not remember their names. We hear leaders say that everyone is replaceable when literally no one is replaceable because no two people are the same. In organizations where employees say they feel like just a number or cogs in a wheel, dehumanization is likely involved. In fact, we now live with a multitude of entrenched, normalized workplace experiences, many brought about by dehumanization that creates suffering, inflict harm, and reduced quality of life for employees. Mass layoffs via short video conferences are a recent example you’ve heard about in the news, but there are many others. Handing out work schedules only days ahead of time, as often happens in restaurants and retail workplaces is inhumane. After all, how is someone able to plan anything in their life with such limited notice about when to be at work? So too is promising a certain number of hours to a worker than reducing them. This creates a financial shortfall, inflicting economic stress on the household. Similarly, telling employees that they must work for a year before accessing benefits or paid vacation is inhumane. Expecting people to work for 12 consecutive months without needing a day off or healthcare is absurd. And expecting employees to stand for seven hours a day in their job is inhumane. It inflicts physical harm. Trust me, no one will stop shopping at your grocery store if the 60-year-old cashier ringing up their cereal and eggs is sitting on a stool. The same is true for workplaces that limit or discourage bathroom breaks.

Joe:
These are cruelties, often reserved for the lowest-wage workers among us. Can you imagine telling an accountant that they’re required to stand at their desk all day, or that they are only permitted to go to the restroom at a specific time? In any case, where an employer or supervisor operates without regard for the negative impact a decision, policy, or situation has on an employee, we are perpetuating dehumanization. This creates a domino effect of suffering. The kind that many workers have endured for years are renouncing today, and that is entrenched in the culture of organizations that are struggling to find and keep employees.

Joe:
That is an excerpt from Employalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work, which is available for pre-order now and releases on May 9th.

Joe:
Suzanne, welcome back. Thank you for letting me read for a little while. Let me give you a chance to weigh in on that excerpt. I know you got a preview copy of the book a while back. And so, none of this is new to you. And we’ve talked a little bit about dehumanization on the show already. But when we put all of that in place like that and we point to it as a sort of longstanding killer of morale and retention, what are your thoughts?

Suzanne:
Well, I think you, you’ve put out very clearly and specifically some very uncomfortable truths about many organizations where people have to get up and go to work and feel maybe not empowered or like they have the wherewithal to, to make different decisions. Although people are, aren’t they, they are making decisions about leaving the organizations and finding other options. When you read it this time, I listened with a, you know, a different set of ears from the first time I read it myself. And you know, Joe, so much of what we talk about when we’re offering advice or suggestions, when managers and bosses are facing employee problems, the word empathy comes up a lot. You know, we ask them to always start with empathy and to be able to put themselves in that person’s shoes, and at least to relate somewhat to, to their feelings and what’s going on.

Suzanne:
And when I listen to it this time, it’s like organizations without empathy almost, right? That these, and I, I, you know, and I would, it, it, it’s unfortunate and there are, I believe, long-term unintended consequences from policies that were written for different times in different places. And so, the opportunity exists to, to change things a little bit from the policies, the expectations, the norms that we take for granted that we don’t even realize are having such an impact. And organizations need to wake up and, and use their empathy skills for the bigger picture, not just for, you know, saving them for conversations once in a while.

Joe:
Yeah. And, and it’s such a great point because we have to acknowledge that it’s not surprising that this sort of distancing takes place between leaders and personnel. Because, you know, if you’re an executive in an organization or even a frontline supervisor, sometimes you have to make decisions about business and people that, that we agonize over or that are difficult. And so, it’s, it’s no surprise that for people in leadership roles, sometimes there is a kind of psychological distancing that takes place in order to make it possible to make decisions. Otherwise, we, we would maybe just never sleep at night if, if we knew sometimes the impact that we have on people. But I think my argument is that, but that’s exactly why we end up getting into cycles of suffering for a lot of folks. The book goes into a whole host of other examples.

Joe:
That chapter actually opens with this wave of firings that we’ve seen over Zoom and via text message in recent years and really kind of diving into why does that happen and how, how do good people in roles of leadership get to a place where they decide that that’s okay. And this is, this is sort of the undercurrent of that. It’s that distancing that they’ve been doing for years that for, for one reason or another, allows them to come to believe that this is not that big of a deal. And, you know, there are other examples that, that I, I talk about following the excerpt that you just heard about how not paying people a living wage is inhumane and enduring you know, name calling and tribalism and some of the other things that we see on teams that are exclusionary for members of teams are inhumane. And so, your point about empathy is really at the center of how we start to overcome this. We don’t tend to see low morale on teams and retention efforts on teams where people feel respected and seen and heard and supported, right? And that’s really at the heart of empathy, right?

Suzanne:
Yeah, for sure. And I think number one, wouldn’t you like to be a fly on the wall when someone decided that Zoom layoffs were, was the way to go? Right. You wonder, and I, to extend a little bit of empathy, it’s not an empathy’s not an excuse, but imagine, you know, the good person in that room who they’re just under so much pressure from whatever forces or stressed out or tired and okay, whatever, right? Yeah. Someone in that room didn’t fight for the right thing. And that’s, you know, or didn’t win the fight for the right thing. That’s too bad. But I also think the other, you know, I was thinking of other examples and that I’ve experienced, and some of it is humor.   the inappropriate use of private jokes. Yes. Or you know, exclusion can come from conversations that you’re sitting in the room, but you have no idea how to be a part of because it’s based on some, you know, joke that occurred six months ago and it’s, they’re still riding the wave of it.

Suzanne:
Somehow, they think it’s funny. Yeah. And you’re not part of that. The other one that I, I would love your opinion on that seemed relatively innocent maybe is at the end of our job description, other duties as assigned. Ah. Right. If that becomes a catchall for asking people to do more work, work that’s out of their comfort zone or work that they’re likely to, you know, make some of their other deliverables suffer in the process of completing it, I think that can be inhumane. Some people might look at it oh, as an opportunity to learn more, but overused over pushed. It could be inhumane as well. It’s the catchall, right?

Joe:
Yes. And I would argue that the reason that the real inhumanity is if we keep putting things on people’s plate and we use other duties as a sign, as a reason, and they push back and they say, this isn’t okay, or, or this is, I need to set a boundary here. The, the designating of that boundary setting as some kind of lack of commitment or lack of capability. Right? Right. That’s the inhumanity. It’s that, oh, this person’s not willing to take whatever we put on their plate without thought or consideration. That’s where the inhumanity is for me.

Suzanne:
I agree. I agree. Yeah. And I, I don’t, you know, we’ve talked about in other episodes that you do want people to be able to have the opportunity to exercise discretionary effort or do the 110% when the team needs it. Yeah. But if it’s other duties assigned all the time, then you are running at a pace that you can’t maintain and then the quality of work can’t be, you know, lived up to, and next thing you know, you’re, you’re in trouble. Right? Yep. Which is inhumane to put somebody in a position where they can’t possibly succeed.

Joe:
And I think that because I want to be solutions focused, as we’ve talked about Yes. Many times, here. What we really get into after this excerpt in the book is diving deep on some of the approaches and conversations and belief systems that leaders and companies need to have to turn the tide against dehumanization even if it’s policies as simple as we are going to evaluate the degree to which decisions impact people’s lives outside of work Okay. As well as here at work. I’m a big fan as a leader of ascribing to the policy that I am never going to ask an employee to do something that is going to negatively impact their life outside of work. Miss family time, for example, or you know, encroach on their life outside of work on hours that they spend outside of work.

Joe:
Right. another example of inhumane treatment that we put in the book is when you ask people to be on call or on standby for shifts without paying them. Right. That’s inhumane. And so, is it easier said than done almost always Right? To sit there and say, we’re never gonna ask anybody to endure anything that negatively impacts their life outside of work. Well, sometimes that’s not realistic because work is hard, you know? If you go to work every day and you tell the parents of kids that they have cancer, it’s, it’s ridiculous to think that that doesn’t impact you outside of work, the emotional Sure. Cost of being in that role. But it also means that we can be thoughtful about the schedule for that person and thoughtful about the resources that we provide for that person to help them navigate those difficulties.

Joe:
All of those bake into the pie of creating a more humane workplace, which is a big part of why I wrote this book. I appreciate you very much, Suzanne drawing attention to some other kinds of examples for this. You know, I am, I check the box for every majority group that you can be a part of, right? I am a straight, white, middle-aged male. I mean, you name it. And I get power and privilege and every group I belong to. And so, when we wrote this section of the book, I tried very hard to make sure that we were landing on things that are from a variety of people as they’ve experienced it from different walks of life. And I really appreciate what you had to say there about humor especially, and I could, I could immediately see a number of our listeners in my mind’s eye just nodding immediately. Like, yes, I have been at that table, maybe as a woman, maybe as a person of color.   and, and to experience that has been dehumanizing.

Suzanne:
Yes, for sure.

Joe:
Well, folks, as you heard about last week, we are also taking just a few minutes these days for the a behind the scenes segment that we’re calling Behind the Book, right, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
That’s right. For you, listeners, you may remember that Joe made us a promise, and that promise was to periodically take us behind the scenes of what’s happening to bring this book out into the world. So, each week he’s going to share a little nugget or update that you won’t hear anywhere else. So, what do you have for us today, Joe?

Joe:
Let’s talk about airport bookstores. Have you ever bought a book at an airport bookstore, Suzanne?

Suzanne:
I have

Joe:
Yeah. What kind of books do you buy at the airport bookstore, if you don’t mind me asking?

Suzanne:
Oh, it’s one of two things. So, it depends on why I’m traveling. So, if I’m on a business trip then I might buy the leadership book, the one that’s out on that end cap that I heard about or read about I, or, you know, was told about on a podcast. Yeah. Something like that. I grab that one. If I’m on a vacation, gotta get away, then I’m probably looking in the you know, the crime drama, the, the Tom Clancy or the James Patterson section That’s Yes, yes. So yes, I’ve been there.

Joe:
Okay. So, we’re very similar in this regard. I’m curious though. Oh, okay. When you’re on a business trip, do you ever buy the crime thriller, or when you’re on a, going on vacation or do you ever grab the leadership book? Cuz now you get a chance to sit down and read it? Do the streams cross?

Suzanne:
Well, well,

Joe:
<Laugh>, that’s a Ghostbuster’s reference, by the way, for anybody who’s paying attention. Sorry, you made a face <laugh>.

Suzanne:
Yes. all right, so I just come back from vacation in my bag. Yeah. Were two Harvard Business Reviews, right?   magazines, magazines, periodicals, and then a Real Simple, which is more about living, living your life, right? Yep. Right. I didn’t crack the HBR or books at all and Okay. Yeah.

Joe:
Nope. That’s a heavy lift when you’re on vacation.

Suzanne:

Yeah. I, and it’s, it’s kind of a, I love what I do. I love what I do. Yeah. Honestly, but I do try to set those boundaries and just let it go as much as I can. Yeah.

Joe:
Yeah. Well, I wanted to mention in terms of this Behind the Book, behind-the-scenes piece. Yes. that it does look like we are going to be going into airport bookstores across the country with Employalty. So Cool. And, and this has been a real education for us. I knew from the jump, from the start of bringing this book into the world that finding a way to get it into airport bookstores was gonna be really important. This book is written for business owners and leaders and is great. I mean, we designed the cover to stand out. It’s gotta help wanted sign in a garbage can on it. You know, this is a visual cue for someone who has the, the challenges that we’re talking about in this book with, with finding and keeping people and activating commitment. And so, bookstores were really important to me, cuz I think that the audience is right.

Joe:
And what you learn when you do this behind the scenes is that airport bookstores are pay to play those books ah, are in the spots they are in because people paid for those spots. And so, we got recently approached by, from the publisher who works with these different retail outlets with some opportunities to pay to place the book in bookstores. And the first offer that we were brought was an end cap offer deep inside the store. And I travel a lot as a keynote speaker, and I can tell you two things are true. The first is that most people who would consider buying a book at an airport bookstore rarely ever walk into the bookstore. They’re walking up and down in the terminal, I don’t know, tell me if you ever do this, Suzanne, you get to the bookstore and you do this with your head, you do the scan. Right? Right. Yeah. You look over on that business books table and like that’s all the new and most notable stuff. Is there anything there that catches my eye? And if there is, maybe I’ll take a stop, couple steps closer, pick it up, maybe look at it. Okay. Maybe I’ll grab it. And if I do that scan and I don’t see anything special, I just keep walking and I never go in the store. Is that true for you?

Suzanne:
Well, I, well I might get the candy bar, but no, I don’t go in the store to peruse the books. I want that little cart that they roll out Yes. Kind of that’s already in the hallway and then roll it back. Right, right. That’s what I’m looking at.

Joe:
Yeah. So, this end cap, I was pretty certain was the one that’s like all the way inside the store and it might be facing the cheese, right. The little cheese and crackers fridge that’s sitting there that you can grab the goa. And I’m thinking if I’m gonna invest angry people aren’t, and if I’m gonna invest resources into getting this book noticed in airport bookstores, do I really wanna be inside the store facing away from the entrance pointed at the cheese? I don’t think so. 

Suzanne:
I don’t think so. I’m with you. 

Joe:
We went back and asked Hudson, you know, what does it take to get front-of-store placement? And they came back and told us, and then I wept quietly in a fetal position for a little while…

Suzanne:
<Laugh>.

Joe:
And then we decided to, to take the leap and it’s a, it’s a significant — in Oh my God —. And so, my gosh, we have requested front-of-store placement and have budgeted for two months and in the hopes that this is a way to get the book noticed. And we see it as really an investment, not just in the sales for the book, but in, in my work as a speaker. And you know, for sure if, if one person hires me to speak based on getting the book in an airport bookstore, we’ll probably break even. And if two people, do it over the course of that time, well then it was a worthwhile investment.

Suzanne:
Better return.

Joe:
Yes. So, we’re thinking about it not just as advertising for the book, but advertising for my work as a professional speaker.

Suzanne:
Right. Okay. Well, I think that’s, that’s a great way to look at it. So, I used to buy billboard advertising, right? For, for clients. So, location, so where it is along the road, right? Where traffic is most like to see it. So, I — ha so looks like you got that covered, but how many, so if you, ah, if Hudson’s setting this up, are you best airports? A lot of them?

Joe:
That’s a great question. Smart question and hidden. The first offer we got for that end cap was in 28 bookstores, and I was like, 28. What, what, what are the airports and where are the bookstores? Because you’ve, if you travel a lot, you know, some of those bookstores are in high-traffic areas, and some of those bookstores are at the end of the G terminal <laugh> all the way down there by that one gate that never gets used. And there’s that employee who works in that bookstore and sees one person every two days. Right? Right. So, there’s a big difference. And so, they gave us a list of airports, and it was a nice mix. JFK was on the list. Denver was on the list. Charlotte, which is a hub for American was on the list. Yeah. Seattle was on the list. My, my home airport of Pittsburgh was on the list. That was very cool. Yay. but we didn’t know, like, was it in 12 stores in Pittsburgh and one in … Right? Like, that wasn’t clear. This front-of-store placement offer puts us into 110 bookstores. That’s why it’s a much more significant investment too. All right. So, you’re getting the better location in the store. Yes. And you’re getting 110 stores. And so, then the, the retailer has to order in more copies to support that placement, which is another reason we thought it was worth doing.

Suzanne:
I love it. Oh, I can’t, you know, thanks for bringing us along on this journey. Look how much we’re learning. Anyone out there is, you know, has that book in them that they’re gonna write someday. They’ll have these tips too,

Joe:
<Laugh> and honest to God folks, if you want to send me to the moon on a rocket of joy, if you see this book in an airport bookstore and you take a selfie with it and send it to me, I am your forever friend. I mean, okay, I’ll, yeah. I, I might even send –I’ll be on a hunt –for your boss better swag bag if you did that. Right. If you posted it on LinkedIn and tagged me or posted it on Instagram and tagged me with the hashtag BossBetter or @JoeMull 77 on Instagram, if you took a picture of yourself, I’m talking to all you BossHeroes. If you take a picture of yourself with this book in an airport bookstore, oh man, I’m gonna take good care of you. This is, this is gonna be something that we’ll do for you. I would love to see those in May and June, I think is when it’s gonna be.

Suzanne:
Can’t wait. Remind us again. 

Joe:
So Yeah, when we get into those months, Hudson, and we haven’t gotten confirmation yet, like they have to confirm for us that they have space for that placement. Ah, we should hear that about that any day. But it looks like we think it’s gonna happen. So that’s the super exciting the story this week Behind the Book.

Joe:
And if you don’t go to airports very often, or you just can’t wait, you can go order your copy of Employalty right now wherever books are sold. I wanna encourage you to consider supporting your local bookstore by going to indiebound.org – i-n-d-i-e-bound.org. And you can order the book on their website, and they will source it from your local independent bookstore, which I think is really cool. But it’s also available wherever you have a leftover holiday gift card that you haven’t used yet. You got a Target card, it’s on Target, Walmart, it’s there too. Barnes and Noble, they’ll be your huckleberry. You can get this book <laugh> everywhere. Go online – pre-order it now. It would mean the world to us.

Joe:
And that brings us to the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
Bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why here on our show every week, we give you a question that you can use at meetings to facilitate connection and build camaraderie.

Joe:
Now, we may end up shooting ourselves in the foot on this one because the question as we play this catchy music, Suzanne, what was the last song that got stuck in your head?

Suzanne:
Not this one. <Laugh>.

Joe:
I’m not gonna lie, that gets stuck in my head, sometimes.

Suzanne:
I Bet it <laugh> or well, maybe it gets stuck in mind. I’m like, what is that <laugh>? Okay, I have one. So, it’s Ed Sheeran’s Shivers.

Joe:
Okay.

Suzanne:
And the reason number one is cuz it’s pretty popular. It’s out there, you know, mind your own business. It’s one of these songs that’s, it’s got a lot of a lot of play. But also, because I think I’ve shared with you, I do, my exercise of choice is Zumba.

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
So, it is one of the songs that we dance to in class. So, like I said, I was on vacation, Shivers comes up, I’ve offered for my family, for me to demonstrate <laugh>, you know, the moves Yes. Whether we’re in a convenience store or restaurant or walking along the boardwalk, whatever. But no one really would take me up on it. But, but that’s okay.

Joe:
Shocking that they would not go for

Suzanne:
That. Yeah. I don’t understand it. I…

Joe:
Especially in such public places.

Suzanne:
Right. What more entertainment value could that be? I mean, they could catch a video of it and throw it out there and make fun of me somewhere I don’t care.

Joe:
And maybe even go viral. Right? Maybe they end up getting a whole bunch of subscribers and hits.

Suzanne:
Absolutely. It could be because.

Joe:
Look at that Lady Dancing moment. Shivers Zumba ain’t on the Boardwalk.

Suzanne:
Exactly. <laugh>. No.

Joe:
The last song for me that get got stuck in my head, you know what? I get victimized by something that only a few people listening to this are gonna know what it is. It’s called Kidz Bop. Do you know what Kidz Bop is? Suzanne?

Suzanne:
No, I’m out of that zone right now.

Joe:
Yeah. See, my kids are 12, 10, and six. And so, I’ve been listening to Kidz Bop for a decade. Kidz Bop is pre-teen kids who cover Top 40 songs that play on the radio. Right? So, you could take the latest greatest Cardi B song, but it’s kids or Taylor Swift.

Suzanne:
Ah, okay. Right. All

Joe:
Right. Or Dua Lipa. Right. And, and BTS right?

Joe:
I’m missing out all these, all these bands that, honest to God, if I heard ’em on the radio, I probably wouldn’t even be able to pick ’em out. But I know the song, right? I’ll be in a, I’ll be in a restaurant, and I’ll hear a song and be like, oh, I know that from Kidz Bop. Who is that? Oh, it’s Megan the Stallion. But I heard the Kidz Bop version, right? <Laugh> and I feel so old at 46. And so, the other day there was a song stuck in my head. And I, I don’t even remember what it was now. So, I’m, I’m giving a terrible answer to this question. Look. But what I remember is, okay, it wasn’t the actual artist’s version, it was the Autotuned preteen Kidz Bop version of the song that was stuck in my head for like three days. And that is a sort of kind of, sorry. Personal living hell yeah.

Suzanne:
Kidz Bop. I can, yeah. Yes. Yeah. It’s not a, I’m not, I’m not even gonna go look it up. I don’t want any of it stuck in my head.

Joe:
It’s, its got it’s own station on Sirius XM Satellite radio. And so, every time we get in the car, like my son Henry who’s six, he’s like, can we listen to Kidz Bop? And I’m like, okay, buddy. Like we try to bounce around to some other things and, but we always come back to Kidz Bop.

Suzanne:
Well, at least there are the appropriate versions of those songs.

Joe:
Yes. It’s been really interesting to accidentally catch the real versions and be like,

Suzanne:
Oh, you’re like, oh, wow. Not good.

Joe:
No, it’s a little darker. No.

Suzanne:
<Laugh>. Yeah. Whoopsie. Yeah. <laugh>.

Joe:
All right. That’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
All right, well listen, we said at the top of the show that we had a huge announcement and we started teasing this news last week. So, we are not going to make you wait any longer. Big announcement. Here it is. We are excited that at 3:00 PM on Tuesday, April 25th, 2023, a handful of lucky listeners are going to get to join Suzanne and I for a live Zoom Q & A. That will also be a live recording of an episode of this show, Boss Better. Now, if you’ve ever wanted to ask us questions directly, attend a recording of one of our episodes, or just get a glimpse behind the scenes of how we put this all together, this is your chance. We have never done a live show with an audience before, but 10 lucky listeners are going to get it invited to an intimate VIP private Zoom recording of our show.

Joe:
Here’s how that can be you. All you have to do is pre-order two copies of Employalty. That’s right. Thank you for flashing the two on the screen there, Suzanne. Well done. And a little that was a piece sign and a two. All right. All you gotta do is go out online and order two copies of this book. One is for you, and one is for a reading partner. And then just send proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com. That’s all you have to do. And you’ll be entered to win one of these 10 seats. Actually, you should also mention the podcast contest in that email just to make sure we enter you in the right contest, cuz we’re doing a different kind of thing for our email subscribers. But if you want to be a part of this private live VIP Zoom Q & A recording, that will also be an episode. Go pre-order two copies of Employalty, send proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com. And note that you’re entering the podcast contest and you will have a chance to win. Suzanne, how fun is this going to be?

Suzanne:
Oh, it’s super fun. We get to meet listeners.

Joe:
Yes. And we get, we’re giving them the chance, ask us questions if they want.

Suzanne:
Yes. They get to interact with us. We get to learn a little bit more about who they are. I’m super excited. I can’t wait to see who shows up what questions they ask.

Joe:
There is a chance that they’re gonna figure out how goofy we are behind the scenes. Mm. And how horrendously unqualified I am to even host a podcast <laugh>. And then No, no, no, no. Like never listen again. Do you think that could happen?

Suzanne:
No. No. Not at all. Not at all. I mean, they, they will get to see some of our bloopers and outtakes that, that, you know, we don’t, we don’t share with just anybody. That’s right. We see it live. That’s, I feel like they’re

Joe:
Gonna be idea forever after that. Like, I was like, hey, hey Janet, you were at the show and like now we’re texting cuz we’re buddies. You know, like That’s right. Be that’s right. It’s gonna be cool. We’re

Suzanne:
Making new friends.

Joe:
That’s right. And I think the other thing that’s really cool about this is most times, you hear about a contest, you got like one chance to win, but with this you’ve got 10. Like, if you go pre-order two copies of Employalty, which let’s be honest, you were gonna do it anyway cuz it’s gonna be a great book. But you order two copies of this book. You send in proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com and you’ve got 10 chances at the prize. Not one that’s like, almost literally 10 times better.

Suzanne:
It does — It math, take Joe’s work for it.

Joe:
The last day to enter is on midnight Friday, April 22nd, US Eastern Time Zone. So, between now and then, go order two copies of Employalty send proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com. Mention the podcast and you will be entered to win.

Joe:
All right. That brings us to the last segment on this week’s episode, Suzanne. Yes. which we’re calling Stop Being So Hard on Yourself. So, a couple weeks ago we found an article that was called appropriately Stop Being So Hard on Yourself. And it was actually in Harvard Business Review. It was written by a Melody Wilding. And it was really a nice take on how often the narrative that we allow to run rampant in our heads can have such a negative impact on us. If you’ve ever had the experience of having something, not go your way then you can relate to this article.

Joe:
The, the article was written about a first, about a story about a man named Ben who goes to a staff meeting and is supposed to be in charge and then it kind of goes off the rails. But we talk about Ben in this article as a high achiever who is also highly sensitive as someone who is driven and who demands excellence from himself at all times. He tends to be very hard on himself when he falls short of his impossibly high expectations. Does this resonate with anybody who is listening? He has innate sensitivity and, and thoughtfulness about other people, but then he uses it to be a little bit too hard on himself. And this can take the form of like really harsh or punitive judgments or overanalyzing your shortcomings ruminating over minor missteps that we make sometimes. And really just constructing a narrative that, that we have failed or that we don’t possess certain qualities or traits or characteristics that are needed to be where we are.

Joe:
And this article resonated with me. I sent it to Suzanne, it resonated with her. We’re gonna link to it in the show notes and in the transcript over at bossbetternowpodcast.com here on this Episode, Episode 102. But I sent it to Suzanne and asked her if she thought it would be good fodder for the podcast. And it turns out that it sparked a story. And I don’t know what this story is, but she said, yeah, I got a story about this that I wanna share on the show <laugh>, so let’s do it. And so, Suzanne, what’s your story?

Suzanne:
Well, my story is about an inner critic that I have to deal with myself. So, we all have that voice inside her head that, you know, rears its ugly head or once in a while that tells us we can’t do something or makes us feel sorry for something or makes us get paranoid. And the article gives some fabulous advice. Yeah. Right. About how to deal with that. Name it. Yeah. I love the flip the narrative, the what if make, make it more about possibilities, not the things that might fail. Set a timer, you know, we’re allowed to feel what we feel in life. Yep. But compartmentalize it, acknowledge it, work through it, then let it go. All kinds of different advice. The one advice that wasn’t in here which kind of sparked the story idea, is about make sure you have fans, right?

Suzanne:
That you have friends Yes. Around you that kind of won’t let you put up with your inner critic. Yeah. They kind of call you up short and Joe, you don’t, might not remember, but you are that friend to me. Really? And it was ear. Yes. It was earlier this year I think in, I think, or maybe it was later last year, I was having what I, I would playfully call a confidence crisis. Right. Okay. You know, whatever lots of stresses going on. Not sure if I’m doing the right thing. Oh my gosh. You know, am I worthy? All these things. Yeah. And we were, we were talking about work, we were talking about the podcast. We were, you know, going through some ideas and I said a couple of negative things about myself. You know, I was just in a mood.

Suzanne:
My mom calls those moods snake belly days. Hmm. When you couldn’t be any lower than a snake’s belly <laugh>, you know, cause it’s right on the ground. That’s, but I was having a snake belly day and that make, I’m very, you know talkative, chatty. So, I have a tendency to my, I might not talk about my feelings, but you can usually figure out how I’m feeling by the words that I say. And I’d put myself down maybe two or three times in this conversation. And you stopped the conversation, Joe, and you said, Suzanne, my friend, I hate to see you talking about yourself that way. Hmm. And I don’t know if you remember, I don’t, but it was like this bucket of cold water like splash into my face. I’m like, oh, what am I doing? Why am I behaving that way? Or why is the dynamic as such on this, this call where I’m like beating myself up? So, thank you for calling me up short. Huh. You know, knocking my inner critic in the nose, you just punched her in the nose, and she was out, out the door for that day. And it helped me just sit there and reflect on what, what is going on? Why am I showing up that way? That’s not who I want to be. So, I need to figure out ways to manage it. And the advice in here, I think is universal that we see in this article that anybody can take advantage of to work on that inner critic. But man, a good friend is Oh, key to it all. So, thanks Joe.

Joe:
Well, I’m so glad that, I mean, thank you that I love the shout-out. But that, that is just as much credit to you for being able to receive that. You know what I mean? Cuz not everybody can, like, if we have somebody in your life who’s like, hey, knock it off, you know, like that’s not, you know, don’t, don’t, don’t embrace that narrative. Not everybody can receive that. So, you know, credit to you for, for being willing to, to adapt so quickly and, you know, I think we all have snake belly days. I think it’s human nature. It’s just that how long do we stay down on the ground? And I remember something that another colleague of mine says all the time that I need to hear sometime. And, and it’s really funny. She says, nobody cares. Nobody is paying so much attention to you that they’ve seen even a fraction of the things that you think you got wrong. No, everybody is busy and befuddled and overwhelmed with their own crap. Nobody is paying attention to you <laugh>. And there’s some truth to that. Right? Right. But like, like nobody notices the things that we don’t like about ourselves or the mess up that we think we have about ourselves at a fraction of the level that we see. Right. And so that narrative that that we hear in our own head is always going to be sort of a 10X version of reality. And I think sometimes if, if we, we can give ourselves the space and the grace to go, ugh, I feel really crappy about how I showed up at that meeting or, or what if this person took x, y, z away from that conversation when that’s not what I wanted. give yourself some space and grace to   to sit with that for a little while cuz that that’s normal. But then you gotta kind of say, okay, that might not be true. How do I move away from that and not let that become a narrative of truth that, you know, I I’ve been having this conversation with my daughter who okay, if she’s 12 and she’s in sixth grade, and I don’t know if you remember sixth grade, Suzanne, but it’s middle school and middle school sucks, huh?

Suzanne:
It does.

Joe:
I don’t use the word sucks a lot on the podcast, but it is appropriate in this circumstance. And she gets in this double cycle, right? She’s got all the kind of anxiety and stress that comes with being 12 and caring way too much about what other people think. And then she gets doubly hard on herself like, hey, I’ve got a great life. Like I’ve got, I’m, you know, a pa wonderful parents who take care of me and I don’t really want for anything. And like, why do I feel badly? You know? She gets in this kind of double cycle where we end up having to sit with her and saying, hey, you’re allowed to feel sad. You’re allowed to feel stressed. Yes. While also recognizing that this other stuff is true. That hey, like life is still too. But one thing that I have been saying to her again and again and again is that thoughts aren’t facts. I’m drilling this in thoughts aren’t facts. Okay. If you’re like, boy, I really, you know I was gonna say <laugh>, I was gonna say screwed the pooch, but I don’t feel like that’s very, very appropriate. No.

Suzanne:
Or talking to an HR lady.

Joe:
Yeah. No, no. I really did not do well at that meeting. Right. I wish I had done better. Right. And that’s a thought, but that’s not a fact.

Suzanne:
Right,

Joe:
Right. Or, or do these people across me, do they think I’m not qualified? Like we get that whole imposter syndrome thing. Do they think, I don’t know what I’m talking about? That’s a thought. That’s not a fact. And sometimes I think if we step back and say, all right, those are thoughts, they’re not facts. Let’s do what we should do with thoughts that may not be facts.

Suzanne:
Let them go. That’s right. I like that. Yeah. And I, you were touching on something. Don’t be ashamed if you don’t feel good. Don’t be ashamed, shamed. Don’t shame yourself if you’re like, I should be grateful for everything, but I feel like crap. It’s okay. It’s human. You can feel like, yeah. Crap on a day that everyone else would think is perfect relatively, but it’s what you do with that, right? It’s what you can feel what you feel. It’s what you choose to do with it after you’ve recognized and acknowledge it. That really counts. It really defines who you are. Yeah. Certainly, as a boss.

Joe:
<Laugh>, we’ve also talked about journaling on the show as an evidence-based practice that helps you sort through all the noise in your head. And I think if you’re somebody who finds yourself getting stuck in these loops of self-criticism where you tend to be really hard on yourself, having a couple of key questions or key practices that you journal around can help move us through the process of letting some of that stuff go more quickly. Right. Questions like that might be true, but it might not be true. Why might it not be true? Right?   or is, or asking ourselves in our own journals to write about the thing that’s troubling us the most so that then we can tear that page out, bundle it up and   throw it in the garbage can   and actually physically let go of it. You know, if you can look up journal prompts to help with imposter syndrome and there’s a whole host of things out there that could be of, of value to folks. So, if that’s you, if you are hard on yourself, maybe think about journaling as a, as a resource

Suzanne:
Or call Joe and he’ll tell you, don’t talk about yourself that way.

Joe:
I’ll be like, nobody cares. Nobody is being as hard on you as you are being on yourself. Let it go. It wasn’t as bad as you thought it was. And thoughts aren’t.

Suzanne:
Facts.

Joe:
Okay. That’s right. Yes. Great.

Joe:
All right friends. Well listen we are so glad that you joined us this week. Don’t forget to enter to win a seat at our upcoming live recording of Boss Better Now on Tuesday, April 25th. Just order two copies of Employalty and send them proof of purchase to hello@joemull.com. And we hope to see you there as one of our 10 exclusive guests. In the meantime, thanks so much for all that you do, and thanks so much for caring for others. See you next time.

Suzanne:
The show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from Better Bosses. Visit joemull.com today.