92. Fight Micromanaging + Delivering Bad News

Transcript – Episode 92: Fight Micromanaging + Delivering Bad News

Joe:
Most micromanagers don’t know that they do it. Might you be guilty of being an oblivious micromanager? Plus, some advice for a listener on delivering bad news. We’ve got lots for you now on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now here’s your host– speaker, and author Joe Mull.

Joe:
That was a bit… That was like a big flourish there at the end. I really like that.

Suzanne:
How about that?

Joe:
Yeah, I feel like you worked up to that. Thanks, my friend. Welcome back, BossHeroes to the show that’s designed to be food for the boss’s soul. If you’re a new leader trying to figure out this whole people management deal, or a veteran leader trying to stay positive and sane most days, or maybe you’re someone who lives somewhere in between, we are truly grateful that you found our show. Remember, you can stream new episodes on our BossBetter YouTube channel, on your A L E X A device by saying, “Hey, name, play Boss Better Now with Joe Mull”. Or of course, you can subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Anyway, however you came to be with us today, we are so glad you’re here. Please welcome to the show Executive coach and HR advisor, Suzanne Malausky — with the flourish.

Suzanne:
Hey Joe, thanks for that. You forgot gnome collector.

Joe:
Gnome Collector. Oh, <laugh>. I didn’t know you’re a Gnome collector.

Suzanne:
No, I’m not. I just thought that sounded funny.

Joe:
<Laugh>, you know what? 

Suzanne:
I was missing something there. I thought I’d add one in.

Joe:
You got me. That was a setup and you knocked it down. That was well done. Well played, my friend.

Suzanne:
Oh, thank you. Thank you very much.

Joe:
Usually, I am going for the joke with the third thing in the introduction that may or may not be true about you. And, and there you go. That was good. That was nice.

Suzanne:
See what I did there? I did keep you on your toes, sir.

Joe:
Thank you for that. Well, I’m looking forward to this conversation today because we’re gonna talk about how to fight micromanaging. And I think it’s important that we really define what micromanaging is and what it isn’t and how to avoid falling into the habits of being a micromanager — because probably more than any other topic — when I meet leaders at conferences and events and they want to, you know, I’m the “BossBetter Guy,” right? And I talk about how to be a better boss and the number of people that I meet at a book signing table afterward or in a meet and greet line afterward, or who just come up to me in the lobby afterward and say, what do I do about my boss who is a micromanager? This is one of the biggest complaints that I get all the time.

Joe:
And what we know about micromanagers is that most of the time they don’t know that they’re micromanagers. They see themselves as being attentive to details, as being efficient, as controlling for quality, as being dedicated to training and development as, as someone who is committed to minimizing failure. But really what’s happening is that this person is just exerting more control than is needed or is effective in their role as a leader. That’s really how I define micromanagement. Somebody who is exerting more control than is needed or is effective as a leader. What’s your experience, Suzanne, with micromanagers? Have you worked for a micromanager?

Suzanne:
Not for long. (Joe: Right? Well said.) I’m, I’m with you, Joe. I think it’s a very challenging topic for new leaders or new managers or even ones that have been leaders and managers for a long time that may not — that have a blind spot around it. I, I love what you said. They may not realize it. So, I think when we talk about it today there are tips for those who don’t wanna be a micromanager, but I also think might give some people some, some “aha” moments. Um like, oh my gosh, am I doing that? Yeah. And a lot of times it comes from delegation, the idea of assigning work or giving up that control or handing something over. So, a lot of times we have to look at where, where are you most afraid of, right? Yeah. What, what fear does this solicit when working with leaders and, and figuring out how not to be that micromanager and what are you doing?

Suzanne:
What are the unintentional consequences of being too much in the weeds with people? I don’t think they recognize that sometimes. Yes. So, we, we usually talk through those things, and you know, I think the one idea to consider is if you look at your team, you’ve got different people. They’re humans all with their own strengths and idiosyncrasies. So, assigning work to one person may feel a little different or need to be a little different than somebody else. And I learned that the hard way a couple times. (Joe: Yes.) Over and over again over the years. So that, that’s what I was thinking about when we’re looking at this topic. But for sure, I have helped a lot of people kind of get right with the idea of delegating. Cuz, you know, you’ve heard me, well, if I have to teach ’em how to do it, I might as well just do it myself.

Joe:
Right? That’s right. Right. At the same time though, it almost never, ever, ever saves time, in the long run, to just do it yourself. Right? It saves time that day, but you are costing yourself. It’s a spend versus an investment. Right. If I just do it myself today, I’ve spent that time and I’ve gotten nothing in return for it other than the thing that I completed. But if I take the time on that day, the extra time that it takes to teach somebody how to do it right, that’s an investment. And there’s a return on that investment that comes later when I don’t have to spend any time doing it. Oh, and by the way, people aren’t robots, and they don’t wanna be treated like monkeys. And so, we have to make sure that they don’t feel like they’re just being, being told to do this.

Joe:
And then that or pointed in a particular direction. And when we take the time to teach people the right way to do something, and then we give them the time and space, and freedom to fail their way toward success, that is how we coach and develop people. But that means that we let them fail. And that means that we’re not overly managing every little aspect of that work product. Like one of the most telltale signs of micromanagement is when people are changing small details on somebody else’s work that aren’t necessarily consequential, right? (Suzanne: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>), if you’re moving a decimal point on a financial document, that’s a small detail that’s consequential. Huge, huge. Right? But if, if somebody’s drafting an email that’s going out to announce a thing and you’re like, oh, I wanna change this one word to this one word that is micromanaging,

Suzanne:
And you have to explore the reasons for it.

Joe:
Right?

Suzanne:
And I think the unintended consequences come about in a couple of different things. So, you said about you’ve lost, you’ve not invested in anything. Yeah. And imagine what you’re supposed to be doing with that time.

Joe:
Right?

Suzanne:
If so, it’s not about the time you save, it’s the time you now have to spend in a different way. And so, if you’re not delegating, if you’re spending time micromanaging, you’re basically putting a lid on your career Yes. Or you’re lid on your ability to progress because mm-hmm. <Affirmative> if you’re not spending on time things on time on things you’re supposed to be, yeah. You’re probably not getting the results that you need to be getting as that leader or in that position. And second of all, you’re not building the talent on your team that can replace you. Cuz, you remember, if you wanna get promoted, you have to have someone that can replace you. Right. So, you need to develop them and get them ready. They should be snapping at your heels while you’re working towards the next huge project or the next level of success that you, you’re seeking. So, you’re, you’re limiting yourself.

Joe:
Absolutely. And it’s sad as it is to say there are some leaders who will never get there because what they really want is that co-dependent relationship. They want the people on their team to have to have their work checked by the leader. The leader wants to massage the mundane details of every little thing because they, that’s what they believe is how they show their value to the organization. If your team can do it without you, then oh my goodness, does that mean they can live without me? And of course not. You know the most effective leaders are those who help team members create ownership around their work product and be able to be self-directed in their work.

Suzanne:
And you know what else it impacts, which I think people don’t think about enough, is trust.

Joe:
Yep.

Suzanne:
If I’ve given you a work assignment or asked you to complete something, and I’m not leaving you to do it, I’m not finding a way to be supportive rather than controlling and directive, it is sending a signal that I don’t trust you. I don’t trust your work; I don’t trust your judgment or whatever it might be. And in turn, they’re gonna have trouble extending trust to you. Yep. So, delegating and letting go without micromanaging is an extending trust. Yep. Which it goes a long way to building relationships, which is what work is all about. It’s like Yep. How are we building relationships with the people on our team so that we can put out the stellar work and make sure quantity of our output is, is top notch? And you have to extend the trust and you know what, the way you did it may not be the best way. Yep. It’s also letting your ego go and it can be relaxing and freeing to say, oh, okay. Because, you know, ideally, you’re hiring people that are at least as smart as, or have not smarter than you. Right. And have strengths that are complimentary to yours. So, if they’re putting in their best work, it’s probably, and hopefully, better than what you have would’ve done yourself anyway.

Joe:
Some people get to their end result in different ways. Yeah. And when we leave them the time and space to get to their end result in different ways, we’re unleashing their creativity, and we’re giving, they’re experiencing ownership over the work. These are ingredients to getting people to stay. These are ingredients to activating commitment. Do you know what one word I had written on my sheet here next to this segment when before that I wrote down before it was trust, it was the word you just said, “trust”. Which by the way, if you look at this new book I’ve got coming out, shameless plug,

Suzanne:
What book is that?

Joe:
The, the great boss factor. The, the, the, you know, we know that people will join an organization and stay and have their commitment activated in many ways. But specifically, around having a great boss, we know that one of the three ingredients to a great boss is trust. And I wrote about this, there’s an entire chapter about trust in the book. And that leaders have to not just earn trust, but they have to grant trust. And when you Yes. Don’t grant trust, you’re a micromanager. You know, I was at a conference this weekend for entrepreneurs, and I was asked to comment if you could give one piece of advice to entrepreneurs who are trying to scale their business and who are trying to grow and get more done, what would it be? And I said, stop delegating tasks and start delegating responsibility.

Joe:
Right? Many leaders end up becoming micromanagers because they only delegate tasks. I want you to do this and then I want you to do that. And then that person has to come back to them and ask, okay, I got that done. What do you want me to do next? Or I want you to work on this and then show it to me when you’re finished. And now I’m checking that person’s work at every step of the way, and they become a bottleneck in their organization. Or if you’re an entrepreneur, if you’re a business owner, you become a bottleneck in your own business. You’ve hired people to get things done, but you’ve just exchanged one spend of time for a different spend of time. The first time you were doing it yourself, the second time you’re just checking work and reviewing it and giving feedback.

Joe:
What we really want is, as I said earlier, is to get to that place where people can do it themselves. And we do that by delegating responsibility, not by saying do this and then that, and then that, but by saying, you have responsibility for this entire category of work or this entire set of problems or this project. And yes, we should have ongoing conversations about how you’re making progress toward that category or that set of problems, or that project. And if there are places where you need guidance, you’re welcome to check with me, but your job is to get to that end result. And I’m here to support you in however I can, but you’re driving the car. That’s how we delegate responsibility and avoid being a micromanager.

Suzanne:
Love it. So, I agree. So yeah, if it’s tasks, then you’re gonna spend all your time reviewing the tasks. And the one way I thought of it similarly was the term, be careful you’re not a macro-manager. Yes. So, it can swing to the other extreme. And the one lesson I learned was, I want you to do this. Right? Yes. And I’m thinking it’s a plum assignment. It’s full of autonomy and opportunity. You can be creative, but they weren’t ready for it. Right. So, I walk away thinking I’ve delegated beautifully. Right? <laugh> brilliant. Yep. On my part. And they’re, they’re sitting there like, ugh.

Joe:
Yep.

Suzanne:
Totally lost. It was over their head. So, there may be stretch assignments. (Joe: Yep.) There may be things that they’re just or, or don’t have the confidence yet to do. So, to your point, the lines of communication, I think being very clear about what the result looks like. Yeah. Here’s how I would, here are the five things I want to make sure that project has, you know? Yep. Or does or, or impacts be. And sometimes you have to think about it because if you were doing it, you might have just started and not thought a whole lot or brought together those very clear things you just would’ve gotten there. So, I know that was hard for me. I’m like, wait, you want me to think this through to the end? Yep. Right. And cause I had, you know, she came back and said, you gave this to me, I don’t know what you want. And, and we, you know, so for smoothing just a little differently but it was refreshing. It was good. It’s like, okay, lesson learned here, so don’t go too far out there in the gray area and give them something because they’re liable to come back with something that’s completely off base. And there’s…

Joe:
You and I are, are very simpatico today, cuz that was the next and last thing that I wanted to mention was about how important it is. It, it to, to make sure that if you’re gonna grant some autonomy to people and you’re gonna be outcomes-focused, that the person has the knowledge and the skills that are necessary to be able to operate that way. If they don’t, right? If they don’t know what the leader wants or if they don’t have the knowledge or skills to, to be able to pilot that, to, to drive the car, then that’s a training question. Right? And that’s a coaching question. What kind of training and coaching does this person need to get there? That doesn’t mean we do it for them, and that doesn’t mean we then re revert from assigning responsibility back to assigning tasks. It’s that we take that step backwards and say, what’s the knowledge that we, what’s the knowledge gap that we need to fill in here? Or what kind of training or skill development work does this person need? Or, or what kind of coaching, what kind of conversational exploration of ideas do I need to engage in with this person to plus one them Right? To move them forward a step and closer to the ability to be able to operate with autonomy around this.

Suzanne:
Absolutely. And I think part of that is that that feedback loop, that check-in you know, break it, break it down into small bites. Yep. of accomplishments. Let’s put some gates on this. Start with this. There are levels of delegation sometimes. Where am I delegating the authority, the responsibility? So yes. Here, here’s, here’s this big project I’m gonna ask you to do X Yes. That’s in service to the bigger picture. Or I’m gonna give you the bigger picture, but here’s the steps that we’ll walk, you know, the walkthrough together or I’ll give you feedback on along the way, so we haven’t Yes. You know, gone down completely the wrong road by the end. So…

Joe:
And sometimes we do that well by setting goals. This is where, you know, our practice of goal setting can be so yes and to quantify them for people. So, I just was going through this with my team as we are putting things in place, all the stuff that we have to do to support the book launch mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, we’re dividing it up amongst the people on our team. And I originally was writing what I wanted each person to do in a two-generalized kind of way. So, for example, kind of pulling back the curtain a little bit, we wanna send the book to be reviewed, right? Among different people who review business books. And so early on, I said, send the book to reviewers prior to launch. That’s not specific enough because how do I find those reviewers and who are they and how many, right? So that converted into, “Identify up to 40 reviewers who have previously reviewed like books and mail them a copy with a request to review by May 1st.”

Suzanne:
Yep.

Joe:
And then get outta the way. (Suzanne: Smart.) Yeah. And then you get outta the way and you let ’em do it.

Suzanne:
Good. Love it.

Joe:
All right folks, I’d love, I’d love to hear from you. We love tackling your questions here on our show, and you can email us questions really about anything that you’re struggling with as a boss. You can send those questions to us at bossbetternow@gmail.com. We do a segment here on the show called Mail Time. We’re gonna do it in a few minutes here where we take questions from our listeners, and we try to share insights, advice, and options that may be helpful to you. We never claim to have the answer. But, you know, we are, you know, like people with elbows, we’ve got two of them — just like opinions actually that that was very poorly constructed. I meant to say that opinions are like elbows. Everybody has two of them. And so do we <laugh> I, I’m, I’m briefly tempted to go back and edit that, so I don’t sound like an idiot, but you know what, I’m just gonna roll with it. I’m still just — let it roll.

Suzanne:
Let it roll.

Joe:
Yes. My point is that if you have a question, we might have answers. So <laugh> email us at bossbetternow@gmail.com.

Joe:
Let’s move quickly into the Camaraderie Question of the Week. We know around here; this is a favorite segment for many of our listeners. We also know that bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other at work. That’s why here on Boss Better Now every week we give you a question you can use with your folks, with your teams at meetings, during huddles, during one-on-ones to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. This is a fun one. Suzanne. Name something in your kitchen drawer that you can’t live without.

Suzanne:
I have lots of kitchen drawers, <laugh>. So, the, I have to go as you would in a team huddle with the first thing that comes to mind. Right? So just go with the first thing. Yeah. And I have to say it’s the handy dandy little rubber thing that I could open a jar with.

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
And

Joe:
You got like from your bank, right? It’s got like the bank logo on it. Yeah.

Suzanne:
Gas station or Exxon <laugh>, Tony the Tiger on it. I don’t know. <Laugh>. it’s old. And then my husband got me a different one because, you know, who do I go to and that doesn’t work. It’s my husband on the couch. Okay. So, he got me this apparatus that has a rubber thing that clamps on the jar that you can pull. So, Ooh. You know, there’s nothing worse than wanting to get into that peanut butter and you can’t get the jar open. So that’s what came to mind first, and I’m sticking with it.

Joe:
I like it. That’s a good answer. I think that I think that answer will resonate with everybody. Name something in your kitchen drawer that you can’t live without. I mean, the answer for everybody is a wine bottle opener. Right. It’s a corkscrew. (Suzanne: Oh, right.) I mean…

Suzanne:
Or bread <laugh>. I like bread

Joe:
<Laugh>. Is that in your kitchen drawer? 

Suzanne:
It’s in the drawer. I have a bread drawer.

Joe:
See? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, yeah. All right. Anyway. Well, it’s funny cuz when I, I have this question teed up. I, I had had a couple ideas, but I didn’t feel like any of them were terribly creative. So, I called my wife right before we recorded, I said, Jess name something in our kitchen drawer that I can’t live without. And her question, like yours was, well are you talking about the two junk drawers in the island or are you talking about like the little drawers of stuff that have the little utensils and…?

Suzanne:
Appliances, utencils, and stuff?

Joe:
Right. And I said all the above, like, what are we gonna say? And she threw a couple things out and she made a good point. I’m a big fan of kitchen scissors. Do you have kitchen scissors?

Suzanne:
Oh my gosh. I have a pair for food. Yes. Only for food. These are for every else. I’m tired… Tired of there being food on my paper scissors.

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
Ew.

Joe:
Yeah. That’s gross.

Suzanne:
And why didn’t you wash that? It’s disgusting <laugh>. Anyway,

Joe:
You got some work to do in that house of yours?

Suzanne:
We, well, all a work in progress, but that’s right. Yes. No. So I have my little sheathed

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
Clippers for cutting food in this drawer with the scale and the, and then I have yeah. A pair on either end of the island for stuff. Yes.

Joe:
Papers. We have a set in the knife block. Oh, block. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And those are great. Like, we’ll chop up like one of the kids were little, we’d chop a pizza and yeah. Quesadillas and grilled cheese sandwiches Yes. And things like that. Or if you’re, you know, if you’re separating meat or something like that, they’re great to you. Yes. Don’t go from one to the other. Always wash. But it’s funny because when I met my wife and we started dating and she came to my apartment, she opened a drawer and she said, why do you have scissors in your kitchen? This a story that she, she likes to tell because she said that. I looked at her like she was crazy. She had never heard of kitchen scissors. And I was, I mean I still kept her around, and thank goodness cuz she’s a keeper. <Laugh>. But it…

Suzanne:
Wasn’t a, wasn’t a deal breaker?

Joe:
Could’ve gone… could have gone sideways right then and there, you know. But now we have like two, I know we have two pairs of kitchen scissors. One’s in a drawer and one’s in the wood block and we Yeah. We use ’em. Yeah. And of course, then you have kids, and they grow up and they’re like, oh, I need scissors. I’ll just grab these. And you’re like, no, no, no. Those are the kitchen scissors.

Suzanne:
Right. That’s my husband though.

Joe:
Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. We’re all a work in progress.

Suzanne:
Right. But I, you know, now I use ’em to open bags. I’m tired of pulling on stuff or I can never find that little thing where you’re supposed to be able to rip the bag. Oh yes. The scissors and take it off. Pulling off, not missing around anymore.

Joe:
Cut the plastic, rinse ’em off back in the drawer.

Suzanne:
It’s over. That’s right. Not the food scissors. I mean, I, that’s the paper scissors. Oh, okay. And the food scissors are a completely different thing.

Joe:
It feels to me like you’ve got like several different kinds of scissors within reach, each of which carries its own designation

Suzanne:
A little bit. Maybe it’s too much, but yes.

Joe:
No, I feel, I feel like you’re winning it life.

Suzanne:
Okay. I am.

Joe:
And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
All right, folks, we’re about to do mail time, but if you don’t mind, let me just quickly mention that here in the month of January, my new book, Employalty – How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work is available for pre-order. If you are interested, we would be so grateful if you would go and pre-order it at this time. Early book sales are really important to authors because retailers pay attention to them. And when early book sales do well, they say, hey, let’s put more of this on our shelf. So, supporting an author doesn’t just come down to buying a book. It also matters when you buy the book. So selfishly, I will ask, if you’re interested in Employalty, go ahead, and grab a copy now. Pre-Order it now and it’ll be all teed up and land on your front porch on its day of release. May 9th, 2023. Super excited about the book, especially if you like, kind of the formulas, like these are the things we need to do to be a destination workplace, to make people join our organization, to check the boxes on each person’s internal scorecard for what they’re looking for from their employer in this new age of work. So, you can check that out wherever books are sold. You can search my name or Employalty E-M-P-L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y.

Joe:
And that brings us to Mail Time.

Joe:
All right, Suzanne got this email a while back and ended up corresponding with this leader a little bit. Here’s the message, Joe, our leadership team is going to have to pull a team together and tell them that their location is closing. They’ll be offered the chance to relocate, but the next closest location is several states away. So, the result is that many here will lose their jobs. We’re a tight-knit group of really good people, and I wanna deliver the news as delicately and compassionately as possible. I also need as many of these folks as possible to keep working for several weeks before closure. Any advice for delivering this kind of bad news? That’s from Peyton in Nevada. And I waited a while before sharing this question on the show, just in case any other folks in that organization Listen. And I know that this conversation has already taken place.

 Joe:
Okay. But let’s talk through this a little bit, Suzanne. The first thing that I shared with Peyton is that first and foremost, this entire conversation is about empathy. And it’s about leaving space for people to experience the wide range of emotions that they will experience upon hearing this news. We are injecting instability into people’s lives. We have jeopardized someone’s ability to heat their home or buy their kids’ medicine. So, let’s not expect that people are gonna snap right back into it or snap into acceptance quickly. This will be jarring for folks. And so, the first piece of advice that I gave her is, if possible, to try to tell some of the other managers a little bit ahead of, of time so that they are prepared to support their direct reports. Give the managers a little bit of time to at least start to get their head around the idea.

Joe:
So, it’s not a huge bomb being dropped on everyone because after you share this information with the group, ideally those managers can connect in one-on-one conversations to support people, empathize with people, and find out how they’re doing. The other thing that I told her is that sometimes when we have to deliver bad news, we try to put it into packaging that goes down a little bit more smoothly. And that’s not necessarily gonna work in this kind of situation. Being direct and concise while, while delivering the message compassionately is gonna be important. So, I told her that if this was me, I would pull everybody together and I would say, I need to tell you something that is very hard to say and it’s probably gonna be even harder for you to hear, but we’ve been informed that this location is going to close. And then I would just move right into, I would leave a moment…a beat — a space for people to digest that I would give them a sentence or two about why. And then I would go right into, here’s what this means for you. And then you go into some of those options. But this is not a 15-minute monologue, it’s not a long speech. It’s just the facts. And then you just pause and say, I know this is big news that has a big impact on your lives. What questions can I answer? And then you take any question that comes, let me stop there before I go any further down the line here. Give you a chance to react to the questions, Suzanne.

Suzanne:
Absolutely. And it’s unfortunate that Peyton you know, needed to even have this question to ask. But it shows that it’s important to her, right? That we get it right. You only have one chance, right? To kind of give this message. So, I am totally in line about the empathy part, about setting it up very quickly and then putting the message out there, letting it sit. You’ve got to be direct. No hem and hawing around — no big, “we’ve tried everything” speech before you say it, no apologizing in advance. It’s more of a –this is gonna be difficult. The one thing that I’ve done in the past in preparation for this, so this could help those managers you wanna give the, the pre advice to is sit down, you know, with a couple leaders, your HR person, and brainstorm some of the questions that you believe people will have and be prepared with those.

Suzanne:
Your managers may not know what’s okay to say and what’s not. Okay. Yeah. So, we prepared the talking points, which is our anticipated questions, the most difficult, and give them some opportunity to review those before you give the announcement.  So, they’re prepared to have those one-on-one conversations because they’ll be nervous and upset too. They may be ones that know they are losing their jobs, but they have to stay professional and above board. So, give them that content to help support them. Yep. but it doesn’t mean they can’t be real. They don’t, you know, they, you don’t need to read from the page. Right. We just wanna give you information so you are informed because you wanna be as transparent as you can. But you, and we don’t want people making things up or supposing anything. Right. It’s, you know, it’s where rumors can start or mis misinterpretation of facts. Yes. So, give them, give them the talking points, and think it through,

Joe:
You know, and your point about rumors and misinterpretation is so well taken. I remember a conversation I had with an executive last year who called me. This is a client I had worked with previously, and there had been this massive rumor spread about the financial circumstances of the organization and that they weren’t gonna be able to make payroll. And people were panicking, and he said, I don’t know where this started. We have no problem making payroll, but people are freaking out. And I don’t know why this happened. And we, we traced it back to a meeting that had happened a week or so before where the chief finance officer who was giving an update at a large meeting of, of employees this was in a hospital and was explaining that because of the pandemic surgeries were way down. And so, the revenue from surgeries was way down. And so, they’re having to be thoughtful about spending in the year ahead. And so, you know, he, he said something to the effect, effect of, we need you to be careful with the amount of paper you’re using in the copier and just kind of this general sort of penny-pinching sort of request pinch.

Suzanne:
Yeah.

Joe:
And it didn’t occur to the CFO to put some context around here’s what this means for you. You know, we we’re, we’re fine financially, we’re, we’re not having any struggles with the big picture. This is a little picture thing, but we, you know, we appreciate everybody pitching in. He didn’t say that. He didn’t think about what, what are people’s imaginations going to fill in? Yep. As a result of hearing this information. What do they care about the most? They care about their jobs, their finances, their stability. And so, unless we speak right to that, to allay their fears, the brain makes up a story and that story turns into a rumor. And a week later people thought that they weren’t getting paychecks. And so that intentionality about thinking, what are people gonna be most worried about? And how do I speak to that to make sure that the rumor mill doesn’t run wild is, is well taken.

Suzanne:
Yeah. You wanna spend the time to think that through. You’re right. People will fill in the gaps with misinformation if they don’t have it. The other thing I wanna share, there was an article about there’s some massive layoffs as there are across the country these days, and there always will be. Right? It’s part of business, unfortunately. And I think you spoke to something on LinkedIn recently about it, and what I learned in HR is we, you know, that why can’t we tell everybody? But did you know there are requirements maybe different by every state that you let the state know first before you let your employees know? Wow. You know, there are, there are loops and disclosures that you have to let someone know, like we, you know, if it’s a X percentage of employees or a hundred or more employees, I don’t interesting. Pretend to be an expert on it, but I know you have to give notice

Joe:
Yes.

Suzanne:
To certain entities before you tell your employees. I did not know that. So, so, you know, I, you know, know that companies are, have, have to go through a lot of stuff before they can announce or to declare a layoff to Yeah. So, for, in this case, to say six weeks ago, you know, we’re gonna lay people in clothes. Imagine the chaos that that would cause. So, it’s hard, you know, I’m sure there are companies that do it absolutely wrong and we know those, but in the normal course of business, the people, even the ones that wanna do it the best possible way, there are certain hoops they have to go through and yeah. Boxes to checks before we even get to the point of sharing. So, it’s, it’s, challenging.

Joe:
That’s a great point. There, there may be compliance and legal reasons that we have to do it Yes. In a certain way. Yeah. I, I think the, I think the takeaway for leaders here is really dialing into how do I do this in an empathetic way and how do I speak to the fears and worries that this is gonna trigger for people in the room. So, Peyton and I did have a conversation about this. One other thing that I did tell her she asked about, you know, I need as many of these people as possible to keep working for several weeks before closure. If you know that you’re not gonna relocate to the other place and you’re gonna have to find a job. It’s very common for people to go, okay, I gotta find a job right now.

Joe:
And, and then they’ll leave prior to the full shutdown. But let, let’s acknowledge and, and never ding people for that because they’ve gotta take care of their families. They’ve gotta feed That’s right. Their kids and heat their homes and get and buy medicine. And so, we we’re never gonna look upon folks with that situation, you know, when they’ve secured new employment and chosen to move on with any kind of disdain. That’s important. What I did tell Peyton though is if you want to entice people to stay until the end and you need personnel, you need bodies to help with that, then some kind of closing bonus might be warranted. Right. Where you incentivize,

Suzanne:
A lot of times there’s incentives. Yeah,

Joe:
Absolutely.

Suzanne:
Have you seen that or the type of support? Yes, absolutely. There’s incentive, a stay bonus or incentive kick, you know, when you, when it’s closed or the kind of support you can give if you stay to the end, they’re also benefits such as, you know, a job counseling, resume writing, job search support. Those might be things that kick in after the fact, so you don’t feel like you’ve stayed and wasted all this time and don’t Yep. Have a job. They’ll give you that extra support. So yeah. All kinds of incentives and typically it’s, it’s the staff. You need it to slow to go down by attrition Yeah. To some ideal level before closing. Yep. Yeah.

Joe:
You know, and, and the other thing that Peyton and I talked about was just how important that this announcement isn’t the only communication. Like it’s the announcement and then it’s followed by the one-on-one touches for the direct managers, and then that continues and there’s Yes. Really a commitment to over-communicating at this point. Yes. With, with the folks who are affected and recognizing that they’re gonna have to go home and communicate this to their families. And so maybe even providing additional materials or information or being available to answer questions. And when you get questions that you don’t know the answer to, not being afraid to say, I don’t know the answer to that right now. But I will try to find an answer for you in 24 hours. You know, not just for sure. I don’t know. 

Suzanne:
And not just that… don’t make it up or I don’t know, or and try not to be the complainer. You are hurt. You might be scared as that leader, but your job now is to be the good constructive leader. Yes. I would also be careful, you know, try, it’s not that you can’t feel emotion but try not to be Norm from Cheers when you’re having those conversations. (Joe: <Laugh>, <laugh>, right?) They need, they’re looking for you to be a, a, a not a pillar of strength, but at least a source of kind of confidence and, and support from a place of strength. Yes. so, try to, you know, go, go somewhere else or reach out to someone else if you need to have a breakdown or you need that support, but try to be that support for your team.

Joe:
Yes, absolutely. Great, great, great advice.

Joe:
The, the, the epilogue here I was looking for the word I, yeah, it wasn’t there for a minute, <laugh>. The epilogue here is that this conversation went about as well as it could. I was told that these leaders really leaned into empathy and to caring and to wanting to have people feel supported. And when she followed up with me later, she told me that there were a lot of comments about how caring the leaders were toward the people who were experiencing this shutdown. And that there just very quickly became a general sense of, we’re gonna be okay, we’ll all get through it together, we’ll all take care of each other. And, you know, but people were just sad that this little family that had been formed and been together for years was, was going to break apart, break up.

Joe:
And so, they’re, yeah, they’re moving through that together. But general consensus was that the leaders handled it really well. So, kudos to them. (Suzanne: Wonderful.) for focusing on the humanity of the people involved. Really important for sure. And good luck to all of you out there who are in that situation. You know who you are.

Joe:
Alright, folks, that’s our show for today. If you like this episode, if you got something out of it, you know what would be amazing? Share it. Go on your LinkedIn page, share this episode. Share a link to bossbetternowpodcast.com. Tell other folks how much, much you enjoy this show. And you may end up providing a resource to other leaders who are striving to create the conditions for people to thrive at work. Imagine the impact we could have on the world if we could fill workplaces with better bosses — if we could help employees have a better experience at work. That’s really what we are setting out to do with the work that Suzanne and I each do in our own practice and with this show. So, we’d love it if you would share us on social media and tag us. Tag us. We like to be tagged in the social media kind of way. <Laugh> for now, thanks for all that you do to care for so many, and we’ll see you next time.

Suzanne:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.