62. Fearless Job Switching + Lies Employees Tell

Episode 62: Fearless Job Switching + Lies Employees Tell (Summary)

Would it surprise you to learn that the staffing shortages facing so many employers were going to happen whether we had a pandemic or not? I’ll tell you why “The Great Resignation” was coming well before Covid, and what it means for the future of your team. Plus, a listener asks for help with an employee who regularly tells lies. It’s all ahead now on Boss Better Now.

Links:
To learn more about Joe Mull, visit his website ​Joemull.com​.
To hear more from Joe Mull visit his YouTube channel​.
To learn how to invite Joe to speak at an event, visit ​Joemull.com/speaking​.
To check date availability or to get a quote for an event, email ​hello@joemull.com​.
To explore options for coaching from Alyssa Mullet, visit ​Joemull.com/coaching​.
For more information on the BossBetter Leadership Academy, visit Joemull.com/academy.
Email the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.
To leave comments, ask questions, or to message us visit our Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook Page.
Connect with Joe on Instagram.
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Transcript – Episode 62: Fearless Job Switching + Lies Employees Tell

 

Joe:

Hey friends, Joe here. And if you like our Boss Better Now podcast, then you should also be getting my free BossBetter emails every other Monday. I’ll send you a simple note with advice, encouragement, and resources to help you boss better. Just text the word BossHero to 66866 to get signed up. That’s BossHero, all one word to 66866, or you can visit bossbetternow.com to subscribe. Now let’s get to the podcast.

Joe:

Would it surprise you to learn that the staffing shortages facing so many employers right now were going to happen whether we had a pandemic or not? I’ll tell you why the Great Resignation was coming well before COVID and what it means for the future of your team. Plus a listener asks for help with an employee who regularly tells lies. It’s all ahead now on Boss Better Now.

Alyssa:

You’re listening to Boss Better Now. Please welcome speaker, author, and reluctant Fanny pack wearer, Joe Mull.

Joe:

Hello again, friends. Welcome back. And thank you for making time in your busy existence to join us here on the show. We are your home for advice, humor, and encouragement for bosses everywhere. Please welcome my wonderful co-host who is game to read whatever the crazy introduction is, professional coach, Alyssa Mullet. Hello, my friend.

Alyssa:

So, no, I ha I, I have to, I don’t know. Maybe hope believe that your Fanny pack-wearing is, is perhaps limited to like Disney.

Joe:

Oh man. You know me.

Alyssa:

It’s because I’m hoping that it’s like much more about the functionality that is required than the…

Joe:

That’s exactly it.

Alyssa:

Form of, you know, and fashion of, or not fashion of wearing.

Joe:

The idea of wearing a Fanny pack at this point in my life, life is, is GA it’s. I can’t stomach the idea, but there is so much functionality to it. I, I am, as we record this today just two, about two days away from a trip to Florida where I have a keynote scheduled and then I have to go back to Florida five days later for another conference. And so a couple of months ago, I said to Jess, Hey, let’s mask up. Let’s take the kids to Disney. We haven’t been there in a long time. It’s over President’s Day weekend. They were already gonna have a day off of school. It’s sort of a, a perfect confluence of events. And so I, I don’t wanna carry a bunch of stuff. I don’t wanna wear a backpack, but like, we need the water bottle and we need the poncho cause it might rain and we need the extra mask and we need the hand sanitizer and I’m like, I ordered a Fanny pack off of Target.com and I’m like, I am officially going full-blown dad mode for this. Yeah.

Alyssa:

You got your white New Balances out.

Joe:

Hey, now I resemble that remark,

Alyssa:

That one, that one hit close to home as in your feet.

Joe:

I mean they might be Under Armor, but it’s probably not too far from the truth.

Alyssa:

The same look.

Joe:

The same look. Yes. That is why I’m the reluctant Fanny pack wearer. I have like the little sling bag. That’s kind of a trendier thing to do, but that feels like much more cumbersome. Like, do I really wanna have a whole kind of thing on my whole trunk?

Alyssa:

Yeah.

Joe:

That, you know, on, on a, you know, a Disney day where it’s gonna be warmer. I’m not sure about that.

Alyssa:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I, as soon as I was able to be free of the whole diaper bag-esque phase of life, then it became like how much smaller?

Joe:

Yes.

Alyssa:

Can I make whatever it is, has to carry all of the things. Yes. So that has been my goal.

Joe:

Yes. And I’m hoping it’ll come back having a, a kind of a religious experience. Like I’m gonna wear a fan pack every day because there was so much functionality. I don’t think that’s gonna happen. I feel like this is like a once every two years sort of deal.

Alyssa:

Okay, good. I’ll I’m gonna, I’m gonna keep you in check with that. I, I, I feel like it should be not an everyday kind of thing.

Joe:

And by the time our friends are listening to this podcast, you might be able to go to my Instagram @JoeMull77 and see said Fanny pack in a Disney picture.

Alyssa:

Oh, lovely.

Joe:

It’s possible.

Alyssa:

That would be great. Let’s get one featuring that’s explicit.

Joe:

Oh gosh. Yes. Well BossHeroes, we’re, we’re gonna talk today a little bit more about some of the job changing job switching and staffing challenges that so many of you are facing and full disclosure. I am in the middle, the throws, if you will. And you know, this Alyssa, of writing my third book, and one of the things that I have learned about myself when it comes to writing is I need to write to uncover and discover. I will I have a lot of colleagues and friends who, when they write a book and they sit down to do the work, they they’ve put a tremendous amount of work into outlining the book and they write to that outline and they write for, you know, an hour a day and, you know, six, eight months later, poof, there’s a book and that’s not how I work. I need to sit down and I’ll have the, the rough outline of the big idea. But as I write and story tell, and sort of peel back the layers of the onion, so to speak on some of the ideas, I will end up wading into a, a question and I go, oh, what’s that about? And I’ll do some more research. And so this just happened to me last week. I had a really interesting discovery as part of this process. So obviously right now we know that there is a tremendous amount of quitting taking place. We’ve talked about the Great Resignation on our show. Let me ask you this question, Alyssa, and you just blurt out the first answer that comes to mind when did the Great Resignation start?

Alyssa:

Like maybe six months ago.

Joe:

Okay.

Alyssa:

That’s my like gut.

Joe:

Yeah. So you’re, you’re pretty close. The, the numbers that we’re seeing that in terms of the, the perception that people have kind of go back to April of 2021. That’s when we started seeing higher monthly numbers around the people who are, are leaving jobs. And this however is not the case. So what I discovered in my research and in the book writing is that this idea of the Great Resignation actually started 12 years ago. This has been going on for more than a decade. And so let me, let me take you through some of what I learned and what I think the implications are for our BossHeroes, who are listening. What I found in, I ended up going to this. You wanna hear about exciting time in the world of Joe Mull. I found myself spending hours on the Bureau of Labor Statistics website, cuz they have some really great tools on there for creating charts and graphs and pulling data. And they do a, a, a monthly job opening and labor turnover survey. And so I ended up pulling all this data right. I, at one point I was so enamored with this tool that they had for creating your own charts that this little popup came up on the screen. Like, can we have feedback on our website? And I was like, no, I’m busy, but this is amazing. Anyway, here’s, what’s really interesting that I discovered in 2010 we had 27.1 million voluntary quits in the US workforce. Okay. this is not firings or layoffs. This is people who self-selected out of a job. And the next year there were 2 million more. And the next year there were 2 million more. And the next year there were 2 million more. And when you look at the graph, there has been this steady, progressive, upward trajectory every single year, since 2010, if you go back and start Googling like resignation and voluntary quits, you will see a lot of reporting in 2018 and in 2019 that we were hitting all-time highs and records. Here’s what I learned. We were going to be right about where we are now in 2022, whether there was a pandemic or not. We are a little bit ahead of what the trajectory had been for some reasons that I’ll talk about in just a second, but we have 47.1 million people voluntarily quit their job in 2021. So we went from 27, sorry, 23.1 million to 47 point, excuse me, 47.4 million in 2021. So it has more than doubled in a 12 year period. And when you look at the data and, and look both anecdotally and quantitatively, what you find out is that people are still leaving for predominantly the same reasons, and they’re not just quitting jobs, they’re switching jobs, they’re upgrading, they’re looking for a better work situation for themselves. And so the, the first kind of big implication for this is, you know, we still have so many people who are waiting for when things, you know, calm down or get back to normal or who feel like these staffing challenges that they have right now are temporary. And I think what we have to acknowledge and what the data tells us clearly is that this is not a blip. This is a long-term trend that is going to continue for the foreseeable future. I think that has some pretty shocking and, and interesting implications for how we have to act going forward. But let me, I saw you making a note and I’ve been talking for a while. So let me give you a chance to react to this idea that all of this job switching and quitting, that, that people are so caught up in right now and the staffing shortages that are a result of it have actually been a work in progress for more than a decade. How does that land with you?

Alyssa:

It’s I, I mean, I’m shocked by that. Honestly, I, I was not aware this has been going on for so long. What I, what most intrigues me is to get curious about if that data is tied to age brackets, like, is it generationally because for what I think of is as, you know, just in my own personal experience, right. In my professional career, as I, got clear about who I truly was as a human, right.

Joe:

Yeah.

Alyssa:

And want how being a professional and being a leader fit into that, that’s whenever very strategic choices starting to actually be made for myself professionally.

Joe:

Yeah.

Alyssa:

And that concept that we’ve talked about of, of upgrading of you know, this kind of quest for the myth of balance work life balance, right?

Joe:

Yeah.

Alyssa:

I, I wonder if that’s not what this could be about for so many, any of us, you know, that, that it’s truly that kind of lifelong commitment to our own personal growth that is absolutely affecting our professional landing page.

Joe:

Yes. Yes. So we have seen within the folks who have been quitting, yes. There are folks who are opting out of the workforce earlier than they planned. So we know that some boomers are retiring a little bit earlier than they planned. So we’ve lost some extra working years from those folks. And forgive me for not having that exact number in front of me. It is happening. It’s not the majority. The overwhelming majority we know is that people are switching. They’re, they’re kind of doing this upgrading that we’ve been talking about. And it’s for the reasons that you just pointed to, they are tired and people have been tired for years, right? They are they’re tired of having to work so very hard all the time at jobs that are so very hard all of the time. People have looked at their lives and they’ve said, I I’m tired of constantly being tired. And, you know, we talked about this in a recent, in a recent episode. So people were upgrading for pay, but others are upgrading for quality of life around time and schedule and commute. And, and these are the things that people are moving away from. They’re, they’re tired of long hours, you know, and, and missing important moments in their kids’ lives, or they’re tired of working in a tiny cubicle. And then the pandemic came along and showed them about what it’s like to work from the comforts of home. And that changed everything. And now fast forward two years later, and companies are saying, okay, but you have, now you have to come back to the office and people are going no way. I’m not going back to that life. I’m not going back to an hour commute either way and eating crappy food and, you know, breathing in the infected air of the 60 other people in our cubicle farm. No way! Especially when I can go get, you know, a new job, better job, get an upgrade in pay, get an upgrade in schedule that allows me to continue working from home if that’s what I want. Uh and so that kind of reevaluation of what I’m looking for is a part of this, but the larger point is that that reckoning has been taking place over more than a decade.

Alyssa:

Yeah.

Joe:

We see that upgrading. And, and I think it’s a really interesting conversation to say this was going to happen, whether the pandemic happened or not. Now, I, I also have a, a theory as to why the pandemic did accelerate it a little bit, but I’m not gonna launch into that yet until I give you a chance to react, because I don’t want to like, you know, dominate our whole conversation on this.

Alyssa:

No, I, I, I would appreciate what the so now that I understand the history and I’m, we’re obviously living in the present, what I would then be interested in understanding is if you have some kind of crystal ball to be able to share with our listeners or what the data at least is indicating might be in the cards for us, even if it’s in the next year, because gosh, you know, in a time, whenever there’s so much change and it’s nothing feels certain, it would be lovely just to be able to go, okay, this might be, you know, looking a little different based upon the history now that I understand or have been exposed to what the future might look like.

Joe:

Yeah. the future is the present. I don’t imagine that we’re gonna see a lot of drastic changes to what people are looking for. And it’s for a couple of reasons, first is just from a numbers perspective, we started out talking about numbers. What we do know is that yes, quitting is up, but it’s really job switching, but you know, what else is up hiring? Would it shock you to know that there were more than 70 million hires in 2021, 47 0.4 million quits, but more than 70 million hires across almost every industry, there was still more hiring than quitting. And so this is the proof that people are upgrading, not just anecdotally in what we hear people talking about in the stories, but it’s in there in the data too, and that’s expected to continue. We will continue adding jobs in the economy that is expected. And at the same time that we’re adding jobs, we know that more people are leaving the workforce. We have still boomers retiring every year. And we also know we have fewer people entering the workforce. There are fewer newbies coming into the workforce because the generations coming behind us are smaller. And so there’s this widening gap between the number of jobs and the number of workers. And so the staffing challenges that we’re facing now are only going to be exacerbated by an even more competitive jobs marketplace going forward. And so that’s sort of case one for why we need to get really good at employee experience. We, we wanna be the destination because what people are leaving, the, the places that people are departing are gonna be the places that have all of these challenges and, and for whom they are gonna continue to struggle. But let’s talk about the pandemic for a second, because I think there’s another element here. I think that the switching now in the aftermath of the coronavirus epidemic, it’s been for slightly different reasons. I think COVID made us braver. And what I mean about by that is that pre-pandemic job changes felt like major life decisions, right? Changing employers meant taking a risk. And I would really deliberate and think about that and try to be really strategic and thoughtful about it. Well, then COVID landed on us and injected so much uncertainty and instability into the workforce. And then that job insecurity persisted for years and we learned to live with it. And so everybody’s risk tolerance around their job has been obliterated, right? It’s been lowered. And so these don’t feel like big life decisions anymore. Right. And there’s a lot of things that don’t feel like big life decisions anymore. We’re buying cars on our smart phones now. Right. That used to be a thing that was way complicated and deliberate. And now people are like, ah, I’m gonna pause this Netflix show and buy my car, which is gonna be deliver to my front door.

Alyssa:

Yeah.

Joe:

And so I think COVID for some made us braver. And when you add in this incredible exhaustion and burnout, people have less risk, you know, they’re braver and they’re exhausted. They’re like, yeah, I’m out, I’m done. I’m gonna change jobs. I’m gonna do something else. And if it doesn’t work, I’m gonna change jobs again.

Alyssa:

Yeah. That’s such a… While it’s like scary, you know, the, the whole concept still of all of this change. I think that’s a really beautiful way to look at it. And maybe a really healthy perspective that we can garner for ourselves is the amount of courage and bravery that it has taken is not just this, you know, continuing to show up, but it has launched us into a new stratosphere of risk tolerance for our professional careers and going after what we really want and what we believe about ourselves, you know, there is this whole environment that we could have never dreamed for ourselves. Right. That now might be part of your everyday living.

Joe:

Yep.

Alyssa:

So that’s a really beautiful hopeful thing. Yeah.

Joe:

And, and we talked before about the, be the upgrade and that it is a tremendous opportunity to snag better talent, but it means that we have to be willing to reinvent the work experience because those groups that are dismissing those companies or organizations are leaders who are dismissing whole new reimagining of what jobs can look like are gonna be the ones who are left behind. And, you know, there’s a lot of writing taking place right now about a four-day work week. There’s a lot of writing, taking place right now about massive upgrades in pay. There’s a lot of writing taking place right now about aligning jobs more with talent and the gig economy and assembling opportunities for people to freelance. And, you know, all of these things are part of this conversation because, you know, I, some people have gotten braver, but for some braver isn’t the right word for some, the pandemic made them desperate. You know, they, they looked around and they said, I have not been living the life I wanna live, you know, the, the, the pandemic forced them out of a certain kind of work routine or situation, and maybe their hours changed or their work location changed, or just their perception of their own mortality changed. And they’re going, you know what? I have a completely different set of priorities right now. And the proof of the point is sitting in front of me. You had this experience years ago as part, I mean, since 2010, you are the great resignation. You are the upgrade. You are the reckoning. You looked around and said the existence I was having the expectations I had for how I was supposed to fill this job and be a careerist are driving me to an unhealthy existence that I don’t wanna live. Right. And you, you got desperate, you got braver, you got desperate. Well before we ever heard of COVID.

Alyssa:

Oh, absolutely. I, that is true in terms of, if you, if I truly start to think about it in that context this, I, I knew that there was, I mean, my body told me obviously, right, that this was not sustainable. The way that I was functioning as a, as a leader was not sustainable long-term. I mean, when you’re in the hospital before you’re 30, that’s not a good sign.

Joe:

Yeah.

Alyssa:

Um and so the quest to find out what is braver, what is in that space, right. Can look a lot different for a lot of people. And certainly I think desperation and fear and unknowing and anxiety and all of it goes with it. It’s all part of the process. I’m so grateful that I was able to articulate my own values structure. That’s been essential to me and how I chose to navigate what the next path looked like for me. Yeah.

Joe:

Right. And for so many. So that was a, a, a particularly challenging health event that triggered that examination for you. And I think what we have to recognize is that the pandemic is what triggered that for a lot of other people. And those kinds of reflections were taking place across a significant portion of the workforce for the last 12 years. We just ramped it up now in the last 20 months. And so this has created a foreseeable future where how work fits into our lives is undergoing a massive shift. And it’s kind of happening now at warp speed, your talent pool… If you’re listening and you lead an organization, your talent pool is smaller than ever. They’re also gonna be more discerning than ever. They simply will not stand for a less than ideal employee experience. And at the same time, your competitors in your industry are doing what they can to engineer a better employee experience to steal your best workers. While companies in other industries are, are less afraid than ever before of drawing talent from new and different places. And so at the core of all this is creating a more humane employee experience that fits people’s lives and not expecting people to go 110 miles an hour every single day from sun up till sundown and where work bleeds into every corner of their lives. And so, I don’t know if people will perceive this as good news. I think it is a tremendous opportunity. I think, in the long run, it’s going to make us a healthier society, but I think some organizations are going to really, really struggle to let go of some entrenched beliefs about what jobs look like, what work schedules look like, what pay scales look like and not to mention deconstructing all the crappy beliefs that we have about work ethic that are really flawed and discriminatory in a lot of different ways.

Alyssa:

You know, it’s, it’s cliche, but like that after-school special, the more you know, like knowledge is knowledge is power in, in this particular case. Once again, in, in that, you know, the status quo is here to stay. This is the change. This is, this is it. And so thank you so much for bringing this to us. I do feel empowered now that I kind of understand a little bit of the, where this comes from, and then, Hey, this was, this was inevitable. So, I still get to be brave.

Joe:

And you’re a trend-setter. You’re like I was ahead of the trend. Look at me. I saw this coming and I was living it before y’all were living it.

Alyssa:

Ugh. I don’t like to be a trend-setter really. This it’s just not very nice all the time. No.

Joe:

Well, listeners, I’d love to hear from you about this. I I’ve heard from a lot of you about this who have said in response to some of the other conversations that we’ve had. I switched jobs for the first time in 20 years, and I never would’ve thought about it. You know, but the, the circumstances of my life have changed in the past few years and it’s tied to the pandemic, but it’s also been tied to this longer, slow burn around employee experience and work-life balance, and many of the things that we just talked about. And so you can submit your feedback, your story, your questions, at BossBetterNow@gmail.com. You can email us at BossBetterNow@gmail.com. What’s changed for you. We’d love to hear from you. What are you struggling with around this? Keep contributing to our conversation so we can con keep contributing to the conversation.

Joe:

And we arrive once again, my friend to the Camaraderie Question of the Week, which we plant squarely in the middle of our show here every week, we know that bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why every week here on Boss Better Now with Joe Mull – that’s me – we give you a question that you can use at meetings to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. Our question this week, Alyssa, is this: When was the last time you did something spontaneous and what was it?

Alyssa:

Joe prepare yourself. You might, you might poo your pants. I know I almost did. It’s a set up. So it was actually just last week. Our family lost our family, dog pet she to old age. She was 13, two years ago, Porsche passed away. And ever since that time, you know, we’ve just been waffling back and forth, back and forth whether or not we wanted another dog to our family. And so last week on a Tuesday, oh boy, my husband was showing me all these pictures of these dogs that he…

Joe:

I know where this is going.

Alyssa:

He loves and blah, blah, blah. And I showed him this one picture of these dogs that we’re at the shelter that we got our, our prior dog Porsche from. And he’s like, oh gosh, they’re so sweet. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Cause there were two of them and they’re bonded. So,Um…

Joe:

Oh boy. Okay, plot twist.

Alyssa:

We, we didn’t say, we didn’t say anything else about it. And I woke up Wednesday morning and I couldn’t stop thinking about those dogs.

Joe:

Uh, oh.

Alyssa:

And I felt in my body this like level of buzzing and I thought maybe I drank my coffee too quickly. But it stayed with me and I realized it. No, that’s like, what’s called excitement. You just haven’t felt it in a long time. So I arranged to meet the dogs. I filled out an application and I was scheduled the following day Thursday to go and meet the dogs. I did not say anything to my husband or my child about it.

New Speaker:

Oh boy.

New Speaker:

Um Thursday morning arrives. My husband has to take my vehicle to go get inspected. So I have to unknown to him, take his vehicle a Mercedes to my CRV, to the, to the shelter. But I’m just looking at the dogs. Right. You know, I’m just meeting them.

Joe:

Did you put anything in the vehicle in anticipation of bringing them home?

Alyssa:

I did. I put towels

Joe:

You, weren’t just going to meet the dogs.

Alyssa:

I wasn’t going to meet the dogs.

Joe:

You dirty liar. You knew.

Alyssa:

I, I knew in my heart of hearts that if there was a way that I could get those dogs home that day, I wanted to bring them home.

Joe:

So a few minutes ago I thought I heard barking. And I just thought is it outside?

Alyssa:

I was just going to ask if you heard that because this is the first time we’re doing the, a podcast. And you know, this will be the longer term that I’m in my office and they can hear my voice, but they.

Joe:

Oh, wow.

Alyssa:

Can’t hear anything else. So, I think they were out there playing we’ll cross our fingers. That that’s what it was.

Joe:

So you got two new dogs. How old are they? And what are their breeds?

Alyssa:

So they are labs. They are yellow labs/golden retrievers mix.

Joe:

Yeah.

Alyssa:

And they are adults. I, I do not know their ages. I think they are a good bit older than what the shelter thought that they might be.

Joe:

Okay.

Alyssa:

Um just based upon some of their mannerisms, but Sadie and I just love them. Sadie and Zoe are part of our family. And when my husband got home on Thursday afternoon and walked through the door and I said, daddy’s home his mouth formed the perfect. Oh, and he’s like, are they ours? And I said, they are. And it was just the most joyous thing. And I said, this is either the craziest thing I have ever done, or the best thing. And so far, knock on some wood here. It has been the absolute best thing I have ever done.

Joe:

Well, first of all, bless you and your family for adopting shelter dogs. Almost every dog I’ve ever adopted has been a rescue. And it is so wonderful to hear. And your stock just shot way up in the, in the hearts of some of our listeners, cuz I know that that’s a, a real shared value by a number of folks. And how exciting to do that for your family? How incredibly karmic that? This was the question today.

Alyssa:

I know, remember I saw it. I was like,

Joe:

What is that?

Alyssa:

Timing! The timing. Cause otherwise I was gonna like say before we started the podcast, Hey, you know, this is the, I got these dogs and I don’t know how they’re gonna act and blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, no, I’m just gonna wait till the question comes. So you react in real time.

Joe:

I was, as the story was going on, I was getting all excited and yeah, that’s so cool. I can’t wait to meet the pups. Oh and Goldens. Oh, they’re such great family dogs.

Alyssa:

Yes. My husband had them growing up and so this is just,

Joe:

Oh, so he just melted then when he walked through the door then.

Alyssa:

Oh he, he absolutely. Yes. Yeah. It’s wonderful. It’s wonderful.

Joe:

That’s great! Congratulations!

Alyssa:

Thank you. Thank you. All right. So now you. Spontaneous,

Joe:

My story is not as good as yours at all, but it is something that was recent. Right? Cause that’s the question. What was the last time you did something spontaneous and what was it? So it was about a week or a week and a half ago. My mother-in-law who actually lives next door to us now said, Hey, why don’t I take the kids for a sleepover? This was on a Saturday night. So after dinner, the kids went over to watch a movie and have popcorn with Nana and to sack out at her place. And so Jess and I kind of had this unexpected open evening. Now we are home bodies, big time. We are like, oh, it’s like so much to go to a movie. It’s like down the road. And there are people and you know, we’ll, we’ll just be like, let’s just like stay in. And, but we both kind of were like, we should go somewhere. We should just do something because we don’t get the chance to really get out just the two of us very often. And so long story short, what did the two crazy kids do with their night of freedom? We went to Barnes and Noble.

Alyssa:

Woo.

Joe:

I said we had some gift cards from Christmas and I, I was looking to pick up a particular kind of book and I’m like, why don’t we go down to Barnes and Noble and just walk around for an hour? Cuz usually if we go there, we’ll take the kids. And we’re, it’s all about what they wanna look at and stuff like that. You don’t get to just slow down and browse, you know?

Alyssa:

Yeah. You’re on somebody else’s agenda always. Right. And

Joe:

That’s what we did. We were in Barnes and noble for an hour. And then we got in the car cuz we knew we were both gonna just go home. And like we were excited to read, start reading something and that we had grabbed. And so we get outta the parking lot and Jess points and goes, pull in over there and it was the wines and spirit store. And so we pull in to the adult beverages store.

Alyssa:

Nice! A woman after my own heart.

Joe:

Yep. And we each grabbed a little adult beverage. And so we ended up back home and at like 9:30, we’re each sitting in our comfortable chair with an adult beverage in our hand, reading our new books in complete silence.

Alyssa:

Fan-Freakin-Tastic.

Joe:

And I was like this is the best thing ever.

Alyssa:

That’s amazing. That is amazing. My husband says there will never be silence in our home again. I have to tend to agree based upon what I hear.

Joe:

Well, here’s what I’m gonna tell you. You, you, you actually made a smart move with the older labs for two reasons. The first, obviously that they’re older puppies require a lot more exercise and maintenance. And so you’ve, you’ve saved yourself in one way. And the other is that, you know, labs just are, they tend to be pretty chill. The order that they get, you know? And so that’s gonna help you too. I have a one-and-a-half-year-old dalmatian. I have no chill, no silence. Total manic, clingy, high-strunged-ness. That’s our doggie existence right now.

Alyssa:

Yes. They, they do become little bed potatoes. Like they have their, they share a dog bed. I mean they, they share everything. It’s really very sweet and so loving it’s just melts your,

Joe:

Send me a picture. I want to see them.

Alyssa:

Well, my cold, my cold dead heart is all like all warmed up.

Joe:

We’re thawing you out. Well, well done. I love it. And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:

All right, BossHeroes. I wanna give you a quick heads up that very soon. We are going to be announcing the date of our next Boss Better Virtual Summit. This is a one-day virtual conference that we do twice a year. That’s designed to inspire leaders to be better bosses. We pack it with energy and games and, and inspiring speakers. And so this is an event that is a can’t miss way to kind of recharge your boss batteries and, and, and for every leader on your team. So if you wanna be one of the first to hear the announcement of the date and you wanna get access to discounted tickets as part of our announcement, presale, you have, have to be a subscriber to my BossBetter email newsletter. And so you heard this at the top of the show. I’m just gonna say it one more time. You can text the word BossHero to 66866 to get signed up. It’s all one word BossHero 66866 is where you text that word to. And if that doesn’t work for you, if you’re listening internationally, it won’t work for you. You can just go to BossBetterNow.com and sign up for the BossBetter emails. And you will get all of the Boss Better Virtual Summit, goodness, delivered to your inbox. You’ve been a part of those events, Alyssa, you know how fun they’re yeah,

Alyssa:

They are great. They are truly awesome. Yeah.

Joe:

And I’m super excited about the one that we are planning for. Okay. I’ll tell you it’s gonna be in June. I can’t tell you the date yet. Cuz we haven’t locked it down. Although it’s like 90% locked in. Oh man, it’s gonna be so good. All right.

Joe:

We come now to Mail Time! This week, Alyssa, I have an email from Patty. Patty says the following, I need help coaching a coworker who is caught in multiple lies. This impacts her attendance and the stories she creates. And well, no one believes her at this point. Do you have any advice for politely coaching her and letting her know that the stories and excuses for her absenteeism don’t make sense? Where do you wanna start for Patty?

Alyssa:

Well, so Patty, I can totally understand where you’re coming from in terms of like, there’s this whole thing of this, you, you know, dishonesty that she’s creating for herself and that can feel really icky especially if it’s someone that you want to have trust in. Right. and that you work with routinely, that’s kind of like a fundamental thing is to be able to have and give, give that trust in a free way. When I think about having a conversation with someone about this, it’s limiting it. Number one to how you experience it because the, the blanket statement of no one else, you know, believes them is, you know, can feel really hurtful when said out loud to someone else. Right? So I would focus number one on what you experience when she says these things, I would get out, you know, try to generate your own curiosity so that it comes off and it, the, in with the intent of trying to help her understand what it does to your trust in her when she says these things. And I would get curious too about, is there something in her maybe past work experience that is making her believe that she needs to have some level of excuse or tactic thing because she can’t be late without a valid excuse?

Joe:

Yeah.

Alyssa:

Maybe that’s not like what she needs to be doing in your workplace. And so you can help her understand that, you know, you don’t need to have an excuse. I mean maybe if you just are honest with yourself about why you feel the need to, you know, have something to say about might be why you’re tardy or that kind of thing. So first blush reactions are generate your own curiosity and your own intention around the fact of how you experience it. And you wanting to have a level of trust with, with your coworker.

Joe:

Yeah, yeah. Center of the bullseye in terms of where I was gonna go first as well asking the question of, Hey, what’s that about? And getting curious about that, why does this person feel the need to lie? And sometimes that’s born out of just like you said, Alyssa, maybe they got burned elsewhere in a bad work experience. And so they’ve been conditioned in one way or another to have to concoct stories that aren’t true. Maybe, maybe they are somebody who just doesn’t care and they’re not invested or, you know, some people compulsively lie, which is tied to deeper mental health concerns. And so we get curious about some of that. We’re not necessarily gonna be able to navigate this and if it is an issue of trust and safety that can be fixed and you end up, you know, engineering an environment that this person turns into a rock star because you were able to, to create trust and, and make it safe for her to tell you the truth. And so I think a part of that initial conversation is just calling it exactly as you see it in as compassionate way as possible, where you sit down and you say, Hey, listen, you know, you told me that this was the reason you were late. We both know that’s not true, boy, but you better be certain you better absolutely be certain. And he said, we both know that’s not true. What’s really going on and, and be explicit with your compassion and say, I care about you. You do a lot of, of wonderful things here, but this is starting to create a concern. It’s creating a trust issue and it it’s undermining your trust with other people on the team because they they’re questioning this. When, when you know, know when you tell us that you called off sick, but then on your, on your Instagram, you had a picture of going to the movies that night like that, that erodes trust. And so what’s really going on. I care about you, help me understand what is happening here. I think that’s a first level conversation. I think if the behavior persists, you can have a more direct conversation, right? This is sort of the shape of a lot of these conversations that we have around feedback and behavior change. And that we’ve talked about here on the podcast, where if the behavior is doing harm and you’ve given her every opportunity to change and she hasn’t, then you may have to have a more kind of now or never conversation where you say, listen, I would hate for this to be the thing that, that pushes you out of our employment, you know, separates you from us, but that’s the path we’re on because this is not okay. And, and you identify the pattern. You don’t get into a debate about the circumstances about where you lied on this date, and then you lied on this date and, and then you sort of end up splitting hairs of, well, no, I told, I said I was gonna be late. Not that I was calling off. You focus on the pattern more so than the circumstances. And you, you lay out exactly what’s expected and what needs to happen next, but as you can see, there’s a shape to that. There’s a kind of arc to it that starts with curiosity and compassion and trying to, to really foundationally get some psychological safety for that person before you get into more corrective action conversations.

Alyssa:

Yep.

Joe:

Well, Patty, I hope that’s helpful for you. We’d love to hear how it goes. And so we’d, we’d invite you to circle back to us. And I think kind of a, a last point, it can be very easy to gossip about this with other members of the team, you know, as the leader, when somebody says, Hey, so and so called off, but I know she was this. And as soon as you go I know this is such a problem. Then you have kind of invited them into the secret conversations of your frustrations with this person. And, and that, that just does harm too. And so if, if somebody decides to rat out this employee and, and contributes to the knowledge that you now have, that she’s lying, just say, thank you for letting me know and leave it at that and have your frustrations or your conversations with this person, be exclusively with this person

Alyssa:

Agreed.

Joe:

Well, all right, friends, that’s our show this week. If you liked it, we’ll ask you to please share it. We love it when you do that. Share it on your social media, tell people to check out our show encourage them to visit us so we can encourage you. Thanks for listening. And thanks for all that you do as BossHeroes to take care of so many. We’ll see you next time.

Alyssa:

This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember commitment comes from better bosses. Visit JoeMull.com today.

 

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