60. What Do You Believe About Employees + Trust and Failure

Episode 60: What Do You Believe About Employees + Trust and Failure (Summary)

You gotta be careful. Left to their own devices, most employees aren’t honest or trustworthy. They need to be monitored. Or maybe none of that is true at all. Plus, we Boss Like a Mother and explore the relationship between trust and failure. That’s what’s ahead now, on Boss Better Now.

Links:
To learn more about Joe Mull, visit his website ​Joemull.com​.
To hear more from Joe Mull visit his YouTube channel​.
To learn how to invite Joe to speak at an event, visit ​Joemull.com/speaking​.
To check date availability or to get a quote for an event, email ​hello@joemull.com​.
To explore options for coaching from Alyssa Mullet, visit ​Joemull.com/coaching​.
For more information on the BossBetter Leadership Academy, visit Joemull.com/academy.
Email the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.
To leave comments, ask questions, or to message us visit our Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook Page.
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Transcript – Episode 60: What Do You Believe About Employees + Trust and Failure

 

Joe:

Did you know that twice a year, I hold a one-day, interactive, virtual conference to help leaders become better bosses? We call it the Boss Better Virtual Summit. And the only way to get tickets to these events is to be a subscriber to our BossBetter email newsletter. Just text the word BossHero to 66866 to get signed up and be first to know when dates are announced. That’s BossHero, all one word to 66866. Or you can visit BossBetterNow.com to subscribe. Now let’s get to the podcast.

Joe:

You gotta be careful. Left to their own devices, most employees aren’t honest or trustworthy. They need to be monitored. Or maybe none of that is true at all. Plus, we Boss Like A Mother and explore the relationship between trust and failure. That’s what’s ahead now on Boss Better Now.

Alyssa:

You’re listening to Boss Better Now. Please welcome speaker, author, and new A L E X A owner, Joe Mull.

Joe:

Hey Alexa, play Boss Better Now with Joe Mull is a thing I can say now. Yes, that’s right. We have one of these in our house and I have always been hesitant cuz I don’t want like big brother listening. I don’t like creepy marketing too. Like if I say to my wife, boy, you know, we could really use a new lawn care program and then our entire Facebook and Instagram feeds are filled with lawn care programming ads. You know what I’m talking about? Anyway,

Alyssa:

I was gonna say your phone does that already.

Joe:

I know. Right? And that’s, that’s how I reconcile it.

Alyssa:

Why not just add it to your Amazon list.

Joe:

I mean yes. Everything is listening. Yes. So I might as well just be able to ask her to play the Billy Joel channel on Sirius XM and enjoy it while I’m washing the dishes.

Alyssa:

Like yes yes. You know what I love it mostly for is my kiddo. He’s got lots of questions all the time about some very random stuff. And while I appreciate that he thinks he and or that his dad and I are like, you know, Wikipedia

Joe:

Have all the world’s knowledge in your head. Yeah.

Alyssa:

I don’t and therefore, and I we’ve never shied away from just saying, I don’t know, but we’ll have to Google it or whatever. So then he just takes upon himself while we’re at the dinner table to shout out her name and ask his question. Like, what is the capital of Puerto Rico last night? I mean, this is like the kinds of things that he wants to understand.

Joe:

Yes. Yes. Are there any other uses you have for it that have made life easier or more convenient or that you quite enjoy? Cuz I’m still learning kind of the full breadth and scope of what I can do with it.

Alyssa:

Oh my God. Okay. So as someone who does the majority of the cooking, I don’t know if you also do like the grocery shopping lists, as well.

Joe:

Best thing about it. Absolutely. Hey, a add blah, blah, blah, to my shopping list. And then you go to the store and it’s all there. That is, that is a, a phenomenal feature.

Alyssa:

And I have like, I don’t know, 15 different lists, like the always running, you know all these list, the random like target slash dollar general list. Okay.

Joe:

Oh, that’s a great idea. Different list. So I could say, add this to my Costco list.

Alyssa:

That’s exactly it. And then I got the Costco list. Right. And then I got the list because you know, you always forget about that light bulb, that specialty thing that you need or that little nut or whatever it might be. Yeah. So all the lists. Yeah. All the lists

Joe:

I’ve always used my watch or my phone for like timers or reminders. I’m a, I’m a big reminders person with my phone. Like I’ll say, Hey S I R I

Alyssa:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe:

Remind me tomorrow at 8:45 to stop and pick up a gift card for so-and-so’s birthday. Cuz I know I’m gonna be driving by this store.

Alyssa:

Oh, okay.

Joe:

I like to do that. And it’s nice to do that in the house with her though, like set an alarm for this time because that’s when we promised we’d go next door and let her a dog out.

Alyssa:

Yep. That’s what I do a lot of the time, like remind me to get the laundry, we switch it to the dryer, you know, like that kind of stuff. So yes.

Joe:

All right. So

Alyssa:

Well sends it to my husband’s phone too. So he knows that like what I’m doing or when he should be doing something to

Joe:

Yeah. Okay. Well, and, and to our BossHeroes who are listening, if you have like genius A L E X A hacks that you want us to know about, please share them. You can email us BossBetterNow@gmail.com or you can @ me on Twitter or Instagram at JoeMull77.

Alyssa:

You, you know how we get all like delightful for like organization and hacks for life, right? It makes me all fuzzy.

Joe:

That’s right. And BossHeroes, whether you’re listening on that lady’s device or on Apple or Spotify or, or Google or on YouTube, we’re glad you’re here however you came to us. And the voice you’ve been hearing this entire time besides mine is my fantastic co-host Alyssa Mullet. And Alyssa, I wanted to start off today by asking people to think about what they believe about employees. So I, I have written two pieces lately that have gone out to our followers. I’ve written some things on my blog and on LinkedIn that kind of tie what’s been going on right now with so much shifting and job changing and upgrading in the marketplace to what we inherently believe about employees. So the first was a piece I wrote a, a couple of weeks ago about a conversation I had with a hospital administrator after a keynote a gentleman came up to me. I said you know, the problem with remote is that you can’t see them. You don’t know what they’re doing. You don’t know if they’re working. You don’t know if they’re double-dipping. You don’t know if they’re taking extra jobs on the side. I just don’t know how to make it work. And I said to him, well, those problems you just listed actually have nothing to do with remote. Those are problems with trust. And I think this is an interesting thing to examine when it comes to how we make decisions about how we structure remote work and what we think about employees. Because right now I think the biggest obstacle to making remote work work in companies everywhere isn’t necessarily technology your communication. It might be a lack of trust because I think for some leaders, there’s a fundamental assumption that, left to their own devices, people are gonna lie. They’re gonna cheat. They’re gonna game the system. They’re gonna do the minimum. They’re gonna rip off the company. And so we see so many organizations building these complex systems to monitor work, or, or they install cumbersome processes to constantly check in with people or expect them to report out on their work. I’ve seen a lot of news coverage of these kinds of systems and software. That’s just like startling with some companies counting keystrokes and monitoring attendance with cameras and even requiring hourly updates it’s bananas. And so I think what underneath the surface of that is that we often build processes and systems and make decisions out of fear of the rare, bad apple, and then impose them on a workforce that’s largely comprised of ethical people.

Alyssa:

Hmm.

Joe:

And I think when we do that, it actually sends a harmful message loudly from management to employees over, over again. And that message is we don’t trust you. But the truth is, I think the overwhelming majority of people are trustworthy. I think the overwhelming majority of people are not gonna nap. They’re not gonna watch Netflix and ignore their work because suddenly nobody is watching them. I think that you grant yourself a lot of grace and less stress when you decide, you know what most people are gonna do the best they can because most people are good. And especially remote workers who are probably grateful for the chance to work virtually and wanna prove they can be just as effective. And I think you gotta decide that most people are good people who take pride in their work and not design systems for the rare, bad apple, which just end up doing harm to most of the people who are good. So let me stop there. I have another side to this that I’m gonna bring up in a few minutes, but I wanna stop there and start to, to break that down with you, this idea of what, you know, what do you believe about people? Do you believe that we have to create systems to prevent bad apples from rotting? Or do you believe that most people are good eggs to use two food metaphors at the same time?

Alyssa:

So this is the, when I hear what you’re talking about, some of the key things that I pick up on are words such as trust and fear. And in the example you gave of this administrator, having these concerns, if I put them that way. Right. I think if we’re all honest with each other, at some point in our bossing history, maybe it’s your current present, uh you have had reason to distrust people, right? And there is also this very real what shall we call it? What it is power trip that we can very easily jump on for ourselves to say, I have to feel like I have some very real authority and power over people, right? In order to feel like a real leader, which is an antiquated, bad trope for us to try on, but inevitably we all do it. We’ve all done it. And so what I think we have to now do is in a world where remote work and job sharing and all of the rest of these things that we need to do in order to make work meaningful and work fit people’s lives, we have to delve a little bit deeper into what those maybe unconscious levels of what that power over and authority in us look like now. Right. and so those seeds of distrust, whether they have been real in, in your span of authority or not with employees, you have to do some deeper mind work in order to say, okay, is this based in reality of what is actually happening or is this my perception of what I need as a leader to feel like I have the authority and the power to continue my role?

Joe:

It’s a great point, especially because as you ascend in leadership roles in your career, you become aware of and party to more and more information and, and bigger and broader scope and, and larger teams. And so you are going to see more and more of the extremes. You’re gonna see more and more of the bad behavior. Usually when you have a leader who is imposing a lot of these kinds of monitoring systems, or has a lot of fear, or a lot of mistrust, it, it might be because they got badly burned at some point. It, it might, or it might be because they’ve been doing this a long time and they know that from time to time, people come along and they do game the system. But I think underneath that, you know, maybe it’s power, maybe it’s fear brought about out by the imbalance of what you see versus what you don’t see. My brother-in-law is a police officer. He’s actually a police chief. And we’ve had interesting conversations about this and about cynicism. And he will be the first to tell you that, you know, they see people at their worst all of the time and it, it can make being hopeful or looking for the best in people, difficult. You know, as we talked about, nobody calls the police to tell them that everything is just fine. Thanks very much. Right.

Alyssa:

Right. For sure.

Joe:

Um and so as you ascend in leadership roles, oftentimes you only, you only get exposed to the things that that are the most harmful are, are the bad choices made by a handful of people. And so I think that we begin to think, well, we need to create more accountability and we need to create more parameters. And so we then end up imposing these systems that are designed to prevent another bad apples from doing harm, but then really just undercut the way that we treat people in the environment that we create for them to thrive in. Um I, I think it’s important that we always come back to, what, what do we believe about people? Do we believe that our, our employees have integrity? Do I wanna start by treating them as humans who have scruples at the same time though, accountability and parameters are important. And so I think what leaders have to do is, is ask themselves what’s enough? What, what’s the accountability and the parameters that’s enough because, you know, accountability can be, well, these are gonna be the outcomes. These are gonna be the goals. This is what we’re gonna meet. This is what’s expected. And then you let people go and you, and you leave them alone. And you, and you ask them to work within those parameters. I, I, I’m thinking about one of the things that I’ve had to get better at, as a leader is actually creating those parameters for others, because I tend to assign the people who work for me, tasks and projects and things that I want them to work on without deadlines, I’ll say, okay, here’s a goal that we have, or here’s, here’s a project I want you to take on.

Joe:

And I’ll just kind of expect for them to work it in and, and, you know, treat it as important because we talked about it. But when I don’t give them a deadline or I don’t kind of give them context of, okay, here’s where this fits in terms of the order of what’s most important, they’re kind of twisting in the wind a little bit because they don’t necessarily know. And so I have had to go, okay, I, I need to actually be more intentional and create these, these boundaries and parameters for folks and say, okay, here’s where this fits in. It’s more important than A, B and C, but it’s not quite as important as these other two things that are on your plate. So slot it in. And ideally I’d love to, to have us moving forward on this or completed, or have a next conversation about it by this day, next week. And you know, what I originally had thought was maybe micromanaging was no, was just being directive and creating the kind of parameters and accountability that people need to, to be successful and to be able to prioritize accordingly. And so I think those are the kinds of accountability and parameters that people need to put into place that don’t necessarily assume the worst intent in others.

Alyssa:

I think what might be helpful for us in trying to discern where that line is, right? Is, is, are you trying to prevent a behavior? Yeah. Or are you holding people accountable? Right. And for me, if it’s on that whole prevention thing, that’s that you’re on the wrong side, you’re on the wrong side of, of where you need to be structuring, right. Structure needs to be applied to accountability like deadlines, like under helping people understand the priorities of your organization, the priorities of their workflow, but for every system that you implement on this prevention side for coming from that place of, and distrust, there will find, someone will find a way to exploit it and break that. Cause people will look for that. Yeah. There will always be one.

Joe:

And I think the larger point here and the whole reason I wanted to have this conversation about, you know, what do you believe about employees is because I think the, if you believe inherently that left to their own devices, people will drift towards character defect. It informs how you treat everybody. Versus if you believe that left to their own devices, most people are good and do, and have pride in their work and are, aren’t afraid to work hard that that will inform in a very different kind of way your leadership style. And, and, you know, this is tied to kind of the second piece of this that I wanted to talk about, which was this other piece that I wrote and, and just published not long ago, that was tied to the Great Resignation. So in last week’s episode, we talked about how people aren’t quitting, they’re up upgrading, and that understanding that difference, that distinction is really important to understand what’s going on. Um but understanding that distinction is important for many reasons. It’s not the least of which is this. It informs the story your mind tells you about who people are and what it takes to motivate them at work. And here’s what I mean, if you believe that people out there in the world right now are quitting, quitting, as an idea is associated with giving up with abandoning, with leaving something unfinished or being unable to continue. And so like our, our values tell us that quitters are lazy, whereas upgrading is associated with striving for more making improvements. It’s, it’s associated with ambition and drive and, and a first blush reaction. Our values tell us that upgrading is about a commitment to quality. And so if we see what’s happening right now as quitting, we will assume that, okay, we are gonna see those people as lazy and, you know, lazy people must be pushed and yelled at and monitored. And, and they are unreliable and they are inconsistent unless I have my thumb on them at all times. But if we really take that step back and we understand what’s happening and we see that, that people are upgrading, it might reframe how we think about those folks. Because when people are upgrading, we might see them as driven and committed to quality and that they can be trusted and that they are reliable and that they will strive for more on our behalf without needing to be coaxed or pressured if the environment is right. So as leaders, when we decide that people aren’t quitting, I E lazy, they’re actually upgrading, I E driven it, recalibrates what we believe about them at the very moment that so many people are recalibrating their relationship with us as employers and as leaders. And so it comes back to this question. What do you believe about people? Do you believe that they’re inherently going to drift toward a negative character defect of, you know, doing the minimum, being lazy, trying to get away with murder gaming the system, or do you believe that people are good, that they tend to be driven, that they tend to want a good, to do a good job and take pride in their work? I think everything that follows that creates a tone and influences leadership style,

Alyssa:

One, two things that I’m thinking of whenever you’re, you’re speaking about how we want to think of people, one of which is what if all of your deepest, darkest fears in your distrusts were true? Yeah. And they still got their job done. Hmm. What if, because we are not a 100% good, 100% bad. There is, we are this cognitive dissidents of all of it. Right. So what, what if, what if that employee is on your team? What if you’re like, gosh, that behavior riles me up so much, and I can’t believe that they think that they can have this side hustle and do this work. And, and yet they do,

Joe:

Maybe they are, maybe they’re pulling it off. Yeah.

Alyssa:

Maybe they are.

Joe:

Yeah. I mean,

Alyssa:

Question yourselves.

Joe:

I heard a podcast with somebody the other day that, that kind of put me in that moment where it was talking about the remote work environment for him and that it has actually allowed him to do two full-time jobs remote. And I kind of immediately had that kind of first blush, like, Ooh, I’m not sure how I feel about that. Like if I was employer a would I wanna know about that, would I, you know, it kind of opened up some questions for me. And then I kind of did that step back thing. And I thought I can only measure that person by whether or not they are doing what I need them to do in that role and doing it well. And if they are, I got no say in the rest of that, if they’re at the meetings, I need them to be at, if they’re doing the work I need ’em to be at, if they’re responsive and dedicated, then nothing else matters that other piece doesn’t matter. It is not for me to say whether they should have a second job or navigate or bounce between it. Especially if I I’ve created a remote environment that allows them that flexibility in how, when and where they work.

Alyssa:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we gotta start questioning some of those beliefs up for ourselves. Right. The second thing is, is something that really important, a, a coaching tenant that was ingrained upon me in training. And that I say right off the bat for any potential client, which is everyone, is inherently strong, capable, and wise. Yeah. Inherently strong, capable, and wise. You are not broken. I am not here to fix you. And I’m then I go into my whole coaching understanding so that we have our roles defined within that structure. And when I have coached leaders around this, the challenge then is when I pose that if you are, if I believe deeply, you are inherently strong, capable, and wise, whenever this behavior, this behavior, whatever it might be, that’s coming at you, that’s, you know, really making your life difficult or triggering you in some major way. If you believe that person to be inherently strong, capable, and wise, how will that change your actions? Right?

Joe:

And when we look at this question for this segment, which is, what do you believe about people we have to ask ourselves, so what if my belief is wrong? What, what is the harm done? Right. So if I inherently believe that people will make selfish choices and game the system and take, take, take, and I create the whole kind of systems and policies and processes to prevent that, what is it costing me with the folks who aren’t like that versus What, what if people really are good and prideful and prideful in the good way and driven and can be trusted and left to their own devices. What could it potentially cost me if I’m wrong? I think in most cases more harm is done acting under the assumption that people are less than, than acting with the assumption that people are more than.

Alyssa:

Yeah. Yeah.

Joe:

So what do you believe about employees, BossHeroes? We would love to hear from you, you about this. You can send us your comments, your feedback, your questions. If you agree, if you disagree, we want your voice to be heard. So you can email us at BossBetterNow@gmail.com. Let us know.

Joe:

We welcome you once again to the staple of our show. The second segment is always the Camaraderie Question of the Week. Bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why every week we here on the empire of Boss Better Now. And by empire, I mean three people that run the show. You, me, and Jamie behind the scenes. Every week we give you a question you can use at meetings to facilitate, connect and build camaraderie. I mean, technically it’s not just the three of us, cuz we have a really wonderful group of people on our podcast hosting platform that like optimize the sound quality and do like the hosting for us. And so shout out to our friends at Resonate who do a great job and all make up our little team here. So our Camaraderie Question of the Week is this Alyssa, what are your top three most used emojis?

Alyssa:

So number one have to be like the rolling laughter with the tears coming out. Okay. Okay. Now here’s where I diverge two, three through 100 Are going to be the gifs. G meaning GI F

Joe:

Okay. Yes. Gifs. Okay. Some people say gifs, but those people are wrong. Cuz it’s graphics info, something format. It’s G gifts continue

Alyssa:

Gifs. So the most appropriately inappropriate gifs match to the conversation by which we are having. I mean, I, I, I truly feel that I am trophy worthy of my gif gen

Joe:

You’re a gif master.

Alyssa:

I am. I am.

Joe:

Oh yes. Now that you say that I’m thinking about this and yes, you almost always drop a pretty outstanding gif in any of our texting or group text chains. That’s, that’s fair. I’m way to speak up and toot your, I almost said, toot your bell. Toot your own horn? What is it?

Alyssa:

There’s a gif

Joe:

For that ring your bell. I don’t know what I was going for there, but, but way to, you know, way to own your gifs. See what I did there that’s right. Own. I did gif gifts. See what I did. I feel like that was really So, so you’re not an emoji user as much as you are a gifs user.

Alyssa:

Yes. Yes. Can’t stop. Won’t stop.

Joe:

Okay. Well for me, I, so, and I had a disclaimer on this question, I forgot to mention, I feel like the most, I don’t have data to prove this. I, it probably would only take me a minute to look it up, but I, I would argue that the most used emoji hands down has gotta be the thumbs up. Oh yeah. I think people thumbs up all the time. And so I feel best disclaimer, for this question is besides the thumbs up, what are your top three most used emojis? So BossHeroes, if you’re taking this question to your teams, I would put it like that. Not including the thumbs up. What are your top three most used emojis. So I looked so on the Apple iPhone, when you click the emoji menu, it, it has all your most recent emojis right there. And I know you don’t use that because you’re not an Apple person, but

Alyssa:

Because I have a brain. Yeah.

Joe:

Oh, don’t

Alyssa:

Sorry. What were you saying?

Joe:

No, that wasn’t needed. That was really unnecessary. That was violence for the sake of violence.

Alyssa:

Was it?

Joe:

Like I expect more from you.

Alyssa:

Expect less.

Joe:

Well, I, I, because I prefer superior products, I use an Apple iPhone. And so what I’ve noticed in my most used emoji category, aside from the thumbs up are the following. I am a fan of the double high five.

Joe:

Okay. I am a fan of the shocked face, like with the two hands on the face, like the little like the home it’s like the Home Alone emoji,

Alyssa:

Right? Yeah.

Joe:

And then the third one is to facepalm emoji, right? Like the duh. Right. So apparently almost all of my reactions are either like thumbs up agreement. I right. Shocked

Alyssa:

Shock

Joe:

Facepalm, double high five that’s I feel like that is, that is the four primary human emotions right there in almost any situation.

Alyssa:

I feel like that’s a dance. Like is the, are those not the moves to the Macarena? I mean, I am fairly certain. That is the routine of do the emoji. Do the electric slide

Joe:

Facepalm, high five, shocked. And then at the end, your brain explodes With the mind blown emoji. Well may be fun. Here’s what here’s, what’s something that would be really fun to do if you are in a virtual work environment is if you’re reading on zoom, you can let people change their names on zoom and have them put their top three emojis as their name, or have everybody put their top three emojis in the chat box, or you could do it anonymously. If you like, if you’re person, you could do a bulletin board in the hallway where everybody puts their top three emojis and you have to guess who this is, right. That could be kind of fun. Like, or maybe there’s like a flip card. You flip the card up and it’s got the person’s name underneath it. You could do a lot with this one. This would be fun

Alyssa:

As an HR person. I, I can just say go easy folks, go easy. Cuz the number of eggplant that I am in envisioning is a lot, a lot of eggplant.

Joe:

And if you don’t know what some people use the eggplant emoji for, we’re not going to tell you, you’re gonna have to Google that on your own. And that is the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:

Well, Hey, we’re gonna Boss Like a Mother in, in just a few seconds here, but I wanna first tell you about something new that we just started doing. So we will often get calls from organizations who are interested in having me join them at a retreat or at a meeting or to deliver a keynote or to do some training. And for one reason or another, we can’t make it work. Sometimes their date isn’t available or in some cases they’re just budget limited for things like that. And so for a long time, we have wanted to find some kind of alternative that we could offer when I couldn’t be with a client live like they wanted. So Jamie on my team shout out to Jamie said, well, why don’t we take some of these high quality recordings that we have of several of your programs and create a whole package with them, create a whole set of discussion guides, create a toolkit and offer it as a kind of On Demand package. It’s like Joe in a box. And so this is something that we’ve started doing and that really we’ve gotten a lot of great feedback around. So not only does the client get me for less than the cost of flying me to be on site live, we actually give them all of these other tools to self-direct a program with me that they then get to keep forever and use again and again. And so we have one of these for my No More Team Drama program. We have one for my Healthcare Patient Experience program and we have a BossBetter Leadership option leadership development program option. So it’s been really cool. And so if you are looking for resources like this, if you want Joe in a box and you wanna know more, you can just shoot an email over to hello@joemull.com and we’ll get connected with you around that. And that brings us now to boss like a mother.

Joe:

So for folks who are newer to our podcast, our Boss Like a Mother segment is really where Alyssa and I end up finding parallels between experiences that we’re having as parents and some of the challenges that that leaders face. And so we kind of tend to consistently find parallels and experiences here. And so I wanted to, to talk a little bit about trust and failure and, and the relationship that they had. I have had two experiences recently that got me thinking about the path to trust. So recently Jamie, I’ve talked about Jamie a couple times on this podcast today stopped me in the hallway at the office and said, Hey, can I spend $30? And I said, sure. And she said, do you wanna know what it’s for? And I said, well, if it makes you feel better to tell me then sure, go ahead. But I trust you. And she said, well, I tell you what I wanna do it. And then I’ll tell you when I’m done, cuz I think I can make it work. I said, okay. And so she came back to me a short while later and explained that, that she had used $30 to, to change some aspect of how we were filing our corporate taxes. And that in the long run it was gonna save us money. And I said, okay, great, no problem. And she said, you know, I just wanted you to know, I didn’t want you to think that I was just like buying a bunch of chocolate to sit in and sit there and watch it melt. And I said, well, I appreciate the explanation, but I do trust you. And here’s the thing, Jamie, if you needed to buy a box of chocolate for $30, just to watch it melt because that’s what you needed to be great this week, then do it. I don’t care. It’s 30 bucks. Um and it got me thinking about parenting a little bit and about how the person that is asking the question is going to determine the response. Like for example, if, if my son had come to me, if Miles had come to me and said, dad, can I have $30? What’s the first question. Why? Yeah. What do you need $30 for? Because there’s a different kind of expectation there isn’t there, you know? And, and maybe there will come a point in his life where he’s like, dad, I need 30 bucks and I don’t question it, but that’s gonna be a trust that has to be earned. Right? Yeah. And so I know that it is important to me that every person who works for me has autonomy and feels trusted because I know that those are the conditions that lead people to thrive. I, I know that and I don’t just know it because research tells me it’s true, it’s become a core value, a core tenant. And so it is more important for me when asked, can I spend $30 to say sure. And not, not need to know than it is to say, well, what for, and to micromanage that in the moment now, certainly there’s some scale to this. If Jamie had stopped me in the hallway and said, can I spend $30,000? I would’ve been like, hold on. This feels like a bigger conversation. But it got me thinking about something else, Alyssa, and this is where the Boss Like a Mother thing comes in. So I promise there’s connectivity to this. My wife and I have always managed snacks, pretty intensely with our kiddos. We are a very low sugar household. We, our kids don’t get a lot of sugar. Sugar is a treat. If they want a snack, they have to ask for a snack, they’ll say, Hey, can I have a snack? Because sometimes we’re trying to prevent ruining dinner or we’re trying to prevent people, overdoing it on the house. We’re trying to teach them how to make healthy choices around what you put in your body and all that. And one of the things that I’ve noticed is that we tend to manage it more than a lot of other parents in our orbit. And you know, there’s, there are, we live in a world where there’s more than one right answer. Right? And so I think that that’s not a judgment on how anybody does anything. It’s just how we do it. And I have found myself thinking, when do we stop doing that? When do we say to the kids, listen, we need, we need to turn over to you the decisions about when and how you snack and how much and what you have, because you need to learn how to do it. You need to learn what’s enough and what’s too much. They will never develop agency if we don’t give them the chance to fail is my whole point here. And so in both of these cases for the question about, Hey Joe, can I spend $30 and wanting to control snacks? I have to override my instincts. I have to choose to trust. Even if the outcome isn’t desirable, I may not like what Jamie was gonna spend the $30 on, but I believe it’s more important to say yet more important to say yes than to hold onto that $30 in that moment with the kids, I’m gonna have to come to a point where it’s more important that I give them the chance to fail and to overeat because that has to happen first before they get it. Right. Right. And so the whole point of this Boss Like a Mother segment is sometimes we have to override our instincts and choose trust. Even if the outcome isn’t desirable, we have to give up some of that control. Is this making sense? Are you seeing a parallel here?

Alyssa:

I, I, absolutely. I went back and circled my prevention versus accountability.

Joe:

Mm

Alyssa:

It’s like all tied together. That’s yeah. That, to me, that’s, that’s how this is balanced, you know, and certainly in child-rearing, I think prevent is a part of that. But to your point, when do you move that line into accountability?

Joe:

Yes. And, and knowing that failure will occur, right? So this is, this is a great point. Thank you for, for framing it, like you always credit me for, for bringing it all down and keeping it simple. And that was, that was so beautifully done. Hey, I’m sending you my emoji high five clap.

Alyssa:

I feel it!

Joe:

And because that, that really is the truth. If we are creating all these systems to micromanage people at work and monitor them we’re trying to prevent failure. We’re trying to prevent the bad thing from happening versus if we just give people the, the grace and the agency and the space to make the right decision, we are a setting them up for success. And we’re gonna, they’re gonna eventually learn how to do some things without us and be more successful because we didn’t focus on making sure that no mistake ever occurred. You know, I think that’s the thing that I, I am probably just gonna have to get over with the kids is watch them gorge themselves on snack and candy for a while, until they figure out a healthier balance for it. So like parents out there, if you’ve, if you’ve hacked this, if you’ve figured it out, then I am all ears because here’s the other interesting thing about this Alyssa, like I was raised with parents who micromanaged that too. And when I got older, I really struggled. I really like, I remember going to the cafeteria in, at college and being like, I can have four glasses of chocolate milk at breakfast and there’s nobody to stop me. Like it’s not limited to one.

Alyssa:

Whoa.

Joe:

Right. And so I wonder if that it’s kind of a, it’s a nature or nurtured thing. Like if I have like all of my, you know, interrelated issues with food and, and restraint was that brought about by some wiring, was that brought about, because it was managed for me for too long, I don’t know, but there’s a certain amount of failure that I’m probably gonna need to allow my kids to experience in order for them to be healthier and happier and better successfully able to self-navigate in the future year.

Alyssa:

Yeah. The, the ability to hold yourself accountable in a world that sometimes the, the standards especially when we’re talking about food and what it looks like to be accountable in a healthy space with food diet, exercise, you know, that whole thing, those are some really hard things to navigate. So we’re all just doing the best that we can. And I believe inherently we are strong, capable and wise. And so are your kids. And so are you, and you’ll figure it out.

Joe:

And, and we, we, we thrive and allow them to thrive when we operate as if, and we treat them that way. Perfect bow on our segment, my friend, well done that is Boss Like a Mother. And leave it to our resident, coach, and mother to bring it all together perfectly well done.

Joe:

Well, Hey, friends, that’s our show. Don’t forget the only way to make sure you don’t miss an episode of our show is to subscribe wherever you’re listening. Why not do that right now? Take a moment before you click off, look for that subscribe button and give it a push until next time. Good luck out there.

Alyssa:

This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember commitment comes from better bosses. Visit JoeMull.com.

 

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