23. Changing Attitudes + Exit Interviews Are Stupid

Episode 23: Changing Attitudes + Exit Interviews Are Stupid (Summary)

The key to addressing or changing bad attitudes in the workplace, plus, the cold, dark truth about those mandatory exit interviews when employees leave. We’re going there now, on Boss Better Now.

Links:
To learn more about Joe Mull, visit his website ​Joemull.com​.
To hear more from Joe Mull visit his YouTube channel​.
To learn how to invite Joe to speak at an event, visit ​Joemull.com/speaking​.
To check date availability or to get a quote for an event, email ​hello@joemull.com​.
To explore options for coaching from Alyssa Mullet, visit ​Joemull.com/coaching​.
For more information on the BossBetter Leadership Academy, visit Joemull.com/academy.
Email the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.
To leave comments, ask questions, or to message us visit our Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook Page.
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Transcript – Episode 23: Changing Attitudes + Exit Interviews Are Stupid

Joe:
The key to addressing or changing bad attitudes in the workplace. Plus, the cold dark truth about those mandatory exit interviews when employees leave. We’re going there now on Boss Better Now.

Alyssa:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. Please welcome speaker, author, and retired online poker player, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Hello again, BossHeroes. Thank you for sharing your mental bandwidth with us today. I know there are quite a few demands on that little bit of real estate between your ears. So, we are honored and humbled that you choose to devote just a little bit of time each week to our show here. We hope that you leave having gained more than you had to give up just to be with us. Please welcome back my co-host, executive coach extraordinaire, Alyssa Mullet. Hello, my friend.

Alyssa:
Hello friend. So, the online poker playing is surprising to me because I don’t experience you as a gambling kind of person. And maybe that’s again, just, uh, maybe a stereotype that I have, because I think I’ve been into a casino and, or “gambled”, uh, maybe five times in my life. Um, and I wasn’t in my first like gambling scenario until I was in my thirties. Um, and I think that’s probably just how I was raised though.

Joe:
Yeah, well, I do enjoy poker and I do enjoy, uh, games of chance every once in a while. It’s not something I do often at all. Um, I go to a casino maybe once a year, um, before COVID, you know, I had a weekend that, that, you know, friends and I would get together every year and play golf. And, you know, we, we play poker ourselves at night. I enjoy playing poker. Maybe we’ll hit the craps table once a year. Um, but the retired online part is…was really born out of an experience I had in grad school when online poker kind of exploded a number of years ago and a couple of friends of mine were playing and they were like, Oh, you should check this out. So, I joined a poker site and I, you know, I was in grad school. I had nothing.

Joe:
I think I went in with $25 or maybe $50. And in a matter of a day or two, I’d won about $300. And in grad school, for me, that was almost like an endless bucket of cash. And I immediately got the rush and got caught up in it. And so, it took no time at all to lose that money and then a little bit more. And I very quickly noticed that feeling of if I just go back in there a little while longer, I bet I can get it back. And as soon as I saw that I was like, Ooh, that’s a problem. And so, I kind of cut my losses and said, you know what, maybe I have an addictive personality. That’s not a test I want to take. And so, I haven’t played online poker since.

Alyssa:
Wow. How… What interesting self-awareness for someone in that stage of life? I think perhaps if I had been introduced to gambling early on that I may not have had that self-awareness so maybe the universe really truly knew what was going on, um, because I can absolutely relate. The very first time I went into a casino and we played this little game, um, where it was like, okay, everybody takes only $20, right. You only spend $20, and you see who gets the most for their $20. Right? Well, I was playing the slot machine, and all of a sudden, the, the lights started going off and there’s sounds, and it just keeps going. And then the chip I’m like, oh my gosh, what have I won?… Like a million dollars? It was like, I don’t know not even a hundred, maybe, maybe like $120, I don’t know. But it… That rush, I was like, this is life changing. And I was like, Whoa!

Joe:
See, I can, I can never do the slots. I can walk into a casino and not put a nickel in a slot machine. I don’t get it. And there are people who do it, right? Like pull the lever, I lost. Hey, I lost again “cha ching” still lost. I’m going to do that 470 times in the hope that the one-time… No, I want to play the game. I want to, I want to go play at a blackjack table and use basic strategy or go play at the craps table, or, you know, I, I, that’s the part of it that I enjoy. But again, the, exactly what you said. I don’t walk in there without knowing exactly how much I’m willing to part with, because that’s the night’s entertainment, the same as if I would buy a ticket to a concert or go out to a dinner, you know, you don’t go to the casino with rent. That’s not good.

Alyssa:
Well, what’s so funny is that, um, I also had a good friend of mine, um, who taught me the correct way to play the slots, meaning you, the money you’re taking in, you put in one pocket, right? The money that you win, you put in the other pocket, when the money that you started with is gone, then it’s gone. You stop playing it. That is your exit strategy. So luckily my experiences have always been like centered around social engagements. And so, like that kind of, you know, is the experience of it. And, um, so I, I, I can totally relate with wanting to have kind of the experience of it rather than fixating on money, you know, give me that rush.

Joe:
Good point. Yeah. Cause I would never ever walk into a casino alone. I would, I would go like with a friend or a couple of guys that I hang out with. It wouldn’t really call to me if I was by myself and I completely get that. That’s not a true statement for everybody.

Alyssa:
Yeah. Yeah. And things you don’t know about each other.

Joe:
That’s right. That’s right. Um, well, and, and so we now begin our conversation about changing attitudes. We’ve changed our attitudes a little bit about gambling and poker. And now we’re gonna talk about changing attitudes in the workplace. One of the questions that I get asked the most in leadership workshops, um, when doing training on giving feedback and coaching employees to higher levels of performance always comes down to this idea of an employee with a bad attitude. How do I, as a leader, address someone I perceive as having a bad attitude. And because it’s a question I get asked so often, it just felt like fodder for our show here. Uh, so why don’t we start with that, Alyssa? Is that something that you ever had to struggle with as a leader that you had somebody who had a bad attitude and weren’t necessarily sure how to go about fixing it?

Alyssa:
Sure. I think that the thing that, um, I look to now to try to understand that categorization or that classification of bad attitude is, is it a sustained kind of behaviors? Um, is it a one-off situation? I think most of the time when we’re, we, as leaders are talking about someone with a bad attitude, it’s more than, you know, once a week it’s, you know, continually kind of in any situation, no matter how well improved and or their requested needs being met. Um, nothing seems to move the marker for that individual. Right. But I’m also conscientious now of the dialogues that we’ve had previously about that toxic positivity. Right? So, understanding that not everybody responds or moves through things through that positive frame, nor can you motivate every single individual on your team with positivity and motivation of, uh, you know, we just got to get through this and blah, blah, blah, you know, trying to, um, lift their spirits because that’s not the only way to be in the world.

Alyssa:
But I think that those two kind of positions put us as leaders in this space of when we know it, we know it, we know that individual has a bad attitude, right. And so, I think the first thing is, you know, you’re, I’m going to trust your gut because I trust my own. Um, and I think that the, the strategy that I take now to these types of circumstances is rather than keep coming back to specific instances of this is what you said, this is what you did, or this is what you, you know, uh, how you acted in this particular situation is rather own it, own it for yourself. This is when you said this, this is what it made me feel. So, operating in the opportunity of the feeling space, because they might not understand your logic approach. They might not understand the way that you, um, think that they should approach that issue. Right. But they get feelings because they got lots of them.

Alyssa:
Right. So, being able to say and express how, what it is that they’re saying and doing feels to you as their leader, and then circling into that conversation is if, is, is that what you’re feeling? You know, use that as the opportunity to say, let’s go deeper then, because obviously this other stuff is just surface. If this is the way you’re operating, what are you feeling about that? Truly because we don’t seem to be resolving it now, of course, that’s my coaching, icky, sticky, gray stuff. So clean that up, Joe, you know, make it make sense, give our leaders some tactical strategies. Where do you go with this issue?

Joe:
Well, when I get asked the question that my first response is a question back, what are they saying or doing that’s troubling you because we have to move away from attitude as this sort of subjective descriptor and get clear about behavior. And, and once we do that, not only are we getting clear about what it is that we want to change, but we’re going to learn how to address it in a way that doesn’t trigger defensiveness from that person. If you sit across from somebody and say, I have concerns about your attitude, that’s experienced as a character assault, right? Our attitude is sort of core to who we are and how we show up. And what I think often is troubling to the leader is, is the packaging, right? The style often that the person is using to communicate. Um, and when we say we have a problem with somebody’s attitude, we’re sort of inferring some things there about their motivation directly, explicitly inferring some things back at them.

Joe:
That that doesn’t feel good if you’re on the receiving end of that. So, here’s a little exercise that I ask leaders to do a lot. I asked them to do this exercise. When they tell me, they have somebody with a bad attitude, but they also, I also ask them to do this exercise. When I get told, “I have somebody on my team, I just don’t get along with, with, and I’m struggling with that.” Here’s what I encourage leaders to do. Take a sheet of paper or, you know, seven and make a list of everything about this person that drives you nuts. What is every little thing that you don’t like that gets on your nerves? Write it all down. If they interrupt at meetings, write that down. If they come in late, write that down. If they have terrible taste in shoes and you just don’t get it, write that down, write it all down.

Joe:
And then you go back through the list with a couple of questions. What things on this list are quirks of personality – That really aren’t my business, right? That really aren’t worth my time and attention to address, cross those things out. And then you go back through the list and you say of the items left on the list, what’s doing harm? What are the behaviors, the specific behaviors that are doing harm? And then you circle those and the stuff that, that doesn’t get circled. You leave that be as well. And now if you’ve got a handful of things circled, now it’s time to pick your battle. What’s the most important thing on this list that I think needs to be changed. What’s the thing on this list that I need to really try to work with this person on? So, let’s say you’ve moved through that entire exercise.

Joe:
And what you’ve come down to is that this person is constantly dismissing other people’s ideas at meetings. That’s a very specific behavior now. And sometimes what lives between that, Alyssa is again, the subjective descriptors. So oftentimes if we’re doing this in a workshop, like I might say to somebody, you know what, what’s the problem with the person’s attitude? And they’ll say, well, they’re always negative. And I’ll say, Oh, you have a negaholic okay. We’ve all worked with negaholics. They’re addicted to giving voice to their displeasure or they shoot down other people’s ideas. Um, but if you sit across from somebody and say, I’m really concerned that you just, you’re constantly negative at staff meetings, that’s subjective. You know what you mean? But they don’t, and that’s experienced as a character attack. But if you can translate negative into a specific behavior a “what” and a “when”, then you can sit across from that person and say, “Hey, I noticed at the staff meeting this morning, you interrupted Mary three times when she was trying to talk through some potential solutions for this XYZ problem.”

Joe:
“And you dismissed her idea as something we tried a long time ago and that didn’t work and would be a waste of time. And did you notice how that stifled discussion immediately? And did you notice how quickly everybody retreated from any kind of problem solving at all? This is a specific behavior that I need to ask you to work on because it’s doing harm.” How does that feedback sound to you, Alyssa, if you were to be on the receiving end of it, as opposed to, “I’m concerned about your attitude or I’m concerned that you’re too negative.”

Alyssa:
Right? So I, you know, I’m sitting in the, in the chair listening and I’m, I’m trying to envision myself as an audience member to listening to what I said, and then listening to what you said, and I’m thinking perhaps people don’t see the corollaries where I can now see them to what you said, which is very tactical and very strategic and very appropriate and absolutely will work versus what I said, which is, you know, this whole feeling zone and the dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, the gray. Right. But we are saying the same thing just in a different way. Right. And so, you’re saying name that specific behavior, and you gave a great way to get there, right. With the list and you know, what’s doing harm. What I’m saying is once you get to that, that part, then ask, you know, where you asked, “did you notice how everyone moved away?”

Alyssa:
“Did you notice how it stifled the rest of the meeting?” That’s where I’m saying lean on the feeling of it, right. To say, when you do that, when you interrupt, I feel stifled. I feel cringy. I feel embarrassed for you, for me, you know, name the specific things and the feelings. So, then you can offer that, that understanding to them because inevitably that person has felt embarrassed and, or, uh, stifled, maybe that’s the root of it, right. In some capacity in their life. And so that again, rather than feeling like judgment, as you know, because when you say things like you interrupted and you, uh, did this, uh, and changing your attitude, right. Um, and making it, uh, very subjective, um, in that context, that feels like judgment. But when we can rather say the specific thing and the resulting noticing the self-awareness, the feelings of it, those things actually aren’t in congruent, they can’t go hand in hand. Right. So different approaches. Uh, but I think it gets us to the same end. And I feel like one builds on the other.

Joe:
I think that we’re really looking at a couple of the different pieces and parts of a conversation because when you sit down, and you have a feedback conversation with someone that really the first thing we have to do is name the behavior. Hey, I’m concerned that that X, Y, Z is happening. Um, are you aware that this is happening and in thinking about what I just said, if we really want to supercharge that dialogue, you don’t say, Hey, did you notice that it really stifled discussion? Actually, what we should say from a coaching perspective is what did you notice happened when, when you said XYZ, tell me, tell me about what you saw happening in the room. And then we practice our shutting up and we, and we try to pull that person into that conversation. And if they don’t get there, then maybe we say, Hey, did you notice this, this stifled of people kind of retreated? You know, you may have to give it to them if you can’t get it from them.

Joe:
I think that what you described is something that I think is important to happen a little bit later in the conversation though, equally as important, because we’re talking about the impact of the behavior. Whenever you sit across from somebody, you give them feedback and you say, Hey, this, this behavior is something I’m concerned about. I can guarantee that one of the first things coming out of that person’s mouth is going to be a defense of their intent. They’re going to say, well, I was just trying to move us along. We never finish our agenda, and we got a lot to do. And I don’t, I know that nobody likes wasting time. And we tried that before, and it didn’t work. They’re going to defend what they see as their perfectly acceptable, even good reason for engaging in that behavior. And what we have to do as leaders is acknowledge their intent and say, great, I understand that that was your intent.

Joe:
Uh, but that’s not what happened. And that’s not how it was experienced by other people. So, your intent was “A”, but let’s talk about your impact. And so now what you described, I feel, I felt icky. I felt cringy. That’s an impact. That’s one person’s impact. And you can go around and talk about other people’s impact. And, you know, sometimes when we give feedback to employees, we need to talk about the impact that has on our customers and the impact that it has on the team’s ability to fulfill its mission. Um, in the end, though, what we’re really getting at is will this person acknowledge that a change is necessary? Because let’s be honest, there are some folks listening to this podcast right now who, if they sat across from an employee and said to you, when he said that at the staff meeting, I felt cringy and a little bit embarrassed, they’re going to go – “So I don’t care.” Right? There are some employees who are way more concerned with right now. They’re more concerned with being right than being helpful. And in that case, that’s sometimes where we, as leaders have to say, listen, I get that you don’t agree that this behavior is problematic, but I need you to commit to changing anyway. And if they refuse, well, that’s a whole other issue. That’s a whole other conversation. Now we’re kind of going down the path of can you know, can you stay, can you continue in this role?

Alyssa:
Yeah, that’s a great distinction is being able to walk them along that pathway of, you know, giving voice to their intent, but then helping them through hopefully some level of self-awareness with the impact. Right. Um, so what I heard was being able to take the feeling initially, right. And writing very, um, specific behaviors, right. And for ourselves, uh, and then being able to truly identify what is harmful yes. Uh, and picking those battles. Right. And then in that feedback conversation, navigating those points of behavior and, um, intent and impact, uh, really the, the continuum of feedback coaching, um, in those individuals that we think fall under that umbrella, that vast umbrella of bad attitude.

Joe:
And, and there’s a final component of this, and we’re kind of giving a bonus BossScript here, which is what I call an accountability question. And that we get into an accountability question where we, when we say, um, I know you may not agree, but I need you to understand which I need you to. I know that you don’t agree, but I need you to understand that this is something that can’t continue to happen. And so, then we, we tag an accountability question on the end of that. Can I count on you to, and then you name the new behavior that you want them to use. Can I count on you to refrain from interrupting others at the staff meeting? Even if you think that their idea is terrible and, and exploring a better way to share that with the group, can I count on you to work on that? And you know, the yes or no is going to determine what happens next?

Alyssa:
I love these conversations, Joe, you know, it’s like that whole movie, you know, the box of chocolates. You never know what you’re going to get here on Boss Better Now. You know, you’re always going to walk away with some really practical, awesome, and maybe some enlightening, mushy gushy feel stuff, too. It’s going to serve you well.

Joe:
Absolutely. Well, listeners, if you find our show helpful, can we ask for your help? We need you to share this episode on social media to spread the word about our show and help us grow our audience, help us serve BossHeroes like you out there in the world who are serving others, just click the little share button in whatever podcast app you’re listening to, or type up a post on Facebook or LinkedIn talking about how much you love the show and direct some folks to bossbetternowpodcast.com To check us out and thank you as always for your enthusiastic support.

Joe:
And it’s time once again, my friend for our Camaraderie Question of the Week. Bosses build camaraderie on teams by making it easier for people to find things in common with each other. That’s why every week we give you our BossHeroes, a question you can use at meetings or at huddles or on your group Zooms or in the hallway, or next to the water cooler – if anybody still has a water cooler – to facilitate connection and build camaraderie. And our question this week, Alyssa is about one of my most favorite subjects on planet earth, ice cream.

Alyssa:
Okay.

Joe:
You have just been given a bowl of plain vanilla ice cream. You can add any three toppings. What do you choose?

Alyssa:
Without a doubt… I like, I need 0.2 seconds. That’s it. I want some hot fudge and some maraschino cherries. I don’t even need the third ingredient. I mean, if you want to throw some whipped cream on there, fine, but truly those two things. I’m good. I could eat that all day long.

Joe:
They have a name for that. I believe it’s called a hot, hot fudge sundae. Right? You just described. Yeah. Yeah. Vanilla ice cream, hot fudge, cherry, maybe some whipped cream, depending on your mood.

Alyssa:
Yeah. That’s that it, that is it. That’s an experience. That’s the taste. That’s the texture. All of it. Yeah.

Joe:
You’re a low-maintenance ice cream kind of gal.

Alyssa:
I am, I, I don’t go for like the, all the, you know, the mix-ins, you know? Yeah. You know, I like the occasional peanut butter cup thrown in there, that kind of stuff. But on a day-to-day basis, I mean, it shouldn’t be a day-to-day basis… Let me rephrase that. If I had to pick for the rest of my life, that would be it. Just those two. I’m good. So, are you like some kind of frozen gummy bear freak-a-zoid – gonna put that on…? So, the ice cream, because I went simple and now, I’m thinking, oh my goodness, what are you going to concoct?

Joe:
I like that you think that the nature of our very stark differences in likes puts me in the gummy bear category. That is a category I’ve never been in, but I like that. That’s the guess, right? We’re so different. And it’s gotta be, you know, gummy bears. No, I don’t believe I’ve ever put a gummy bear on any dessert of mine. I can say that with confidence, uh, on my bowl of vanilla ice cream, my, my first ingredient is caramel, caramel, caramel syrup. So, you said hot fudge. And I don’t like the hot stuff. Cause it turns the ice cream into a big melty mess. Like the ice cream disappears way too quickly for me.

Alyssa:
Turns it into a beautiful soup.

Joe:
Yeah. I want ice cream. I don’t want a soup. So, I’m going, I can’t, that’s why I would reach for chocolate syrup over hot fudge because that maintains the integrity of the ice cream. So, I’m going

Alyssa:
Integrity.

Joe:
I’m going caramel. My second ingredient, which might be my first favorite ingredient, uh, crushed Oreo cookies. I want the Oreo blizzard at dairy queen. That’s th that’s the number one blizzard. Right. And everything else isn’t even, even close second. Um, and like by third ingredient, I’m kind of like you, the third ingredient, it’s kind of like my utility player on my baseball team. Right? Like it depends on what the situation is and what kind of skill I’m looking for. What kind of like need I have in the moment. So, some days, you know, maybe, um, um, dropping some pretzels on there, or maybe I’m dropping a Reese’s cup on there, or maybe, um, I can tell you this, there is no fruit insight. I don’t want any fruit on my dessert of any kind. You know, my, my son, Miles, he loves fruit flavored anything. So, when we go for ice cream, he wants the strawberry ice cream, uh, the, the, the local place where we live has a Dole Whip. So, he’s like, I want the mango Dole Whip. And I’m like, keep your fruit away from my dessert. I want decadent, gooey, crunchy. All of it. Say I’m going to caramel Oreos, maybe a chocolate syrup or a pretzel thrown in for some flair.

Alyssa:
Okay. All right. I mean, I don’t really consider maraschino cherries an actual fruit. I feel like they’re more a candy than fruit. So, I feel like we are somewhat simpatico on that. Um, although, like I said, at the end of the hot fudge sundae, that glorious soup, where’s

Joe:
The glorious mix at the end.

Alyssa:
Two mix this one. It’s like the beautiful marriage of ice cream and hot fudge. They swirl together. The two shall never part on your taste buds.

Joe:
And I, and I would argue that no matter how you dress your ice cream, the first bite and the last bite are the best bites.

Alyssa:
Concur.

Joe:
And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
Hey, BossHeroes. More than once you’ve heard me say commitment comes from better bosses. But where do better bosses come from? Answer: The Joe Mull and Associates BossBetter Leadership Academy. The managers on your team aren’t going to develop the self-awareness, knowledge, skills, and relationships critical to success in a one-day training. If you want them to motivate teams, maximize effort, and create the conditions for your employees to thrive, they need ongoing education. When your organization subscribes to our BossBetter Leadership Academy, all your leaders get to join me for a monthly learning event. These live coaching clinics, micro trainings, and dynamic virtual summits take just a few minutes each month. And the year-round access to our digital vault gives you all the recordings for on-demand use, new manager onboarding, and more. Oh, and everything we do is evidence-based and highly entertaining- if I do say so myself. Best of all, for most organizations, you can get a year of this continuous leadership development training for less than the cost of bringing me on-site for a one-hour keynote. If you want managers to lead well, they need to work on it year-round. It’s like going to the gym. If you go once, you’ll get a good workout, but no long-term results. If you keep going though, you get healthier and healthier over time. The same is true for bosses. They need continuous learning and mentorship. So, what are you waiting for? Let’s give your leaders the skills, tools, and knowledge they need to supercharge commitment and boss better. For more information, including pricing, visit joemull.com/academy.

Joe:
All right, Alyssa, we finished today with a segment that we call “Stop It.”

Joe:
We need to stop having exit interviews. Did you do exit interviews in your previous corporate life, my friend?

Alyssa:
Oh Lord, yes. Bringing up the, yeah, you’re bringing up the treachery… uh, you know, as an HR person. No, we didn’t like giving them. So, I think whoever the organization was that said, you gonna have to start doing this as a, you know, uh, make a metric for something like, I don’t know what the heck it even measures. W when has anyone learned anything of credible value in which you could actually do anything about, in an exit interview? Uh, I don’t think it’s ever happened in the history of, you know… It’s too dang late. This is, it should have been the pre pre pre exit interview. If that’s what we’re going for to actually learn something and do something about it, right. I mean, is that is that what you’re you’re like, stop it because of that. Or you got other reasons?

Joe:
Nailed it. In part. So, here’s the thing, you’re absolutely right. People don’t tell the truth in exit interviews, right? People have been coached. People have figured out why would I tell the truth? Why would I say that my manager was horrible, or I was, I worked for, with an abrasive co-worker or your, your pay is crappy, and I got more money elsewhere. Or I’ve, uh, we have created an environment in the workplace where people don’t tell the truth in exit interviews. And the only reason we’re doing them in the first place is we might catch something that we need to hear. You know, I think for a lot of organizations, the intent is good. We want to find out whether there’s something we should know about before someone leaves that could be doing harm or causing trouble for others. So, in that way, I totally get the intent, but it is very much an HR CYA cover your “beep” strategy.

Joe:
As far as exit interviews. Exit interviews are an absurd waste of resources. And if you think about the construct, you recognize it as, as absurd. Think of it this way. Okay. You’ve decided to leave, dear employee. You’re on your way out. You have no stakes here whatsoever anymore. We’d love to hear from you about where you think we could improve. It’s bananas. That’s a question we should be asking when they’re here. Exit interviews are stupid. I’m encouraging everyone who listens to stop doing them. You’re wasting valuable resources instead, do stay interviews. Have you ever heard of a stay interview, Alyssa?

Alyssa:
No, but that seems more appropriate. Because just like you were just talking about in our whole bad attitudes, changing attitudes is the intent is there. Right? But the impact is not what– accomplishing that intent. So, tell me about a stay interview because I think that might actually have the impact that we’re trying to achieve. Oh gosh.

Joe:
Yes. It’s a highly technical approach. Basically, what you do is you take all the questions you would ask in an exit interview and you ask them to the people who, you know, stay. Thanks for listening to our podcast. No, I mean, we have to periodically sit down with folks and say, Hey, what are we doing, well. What do we need to change? What things about your job are impeding your ability to be successful? What do you like about your work? What really energizes you about your work? Or here’s, and here’s sort of the money question. What would cause you to leave? If I told you the year, a year from now, let me rewind that and say it with all the consonants. If I told you that a year from now, you would be working in a new job at another place, what would be the reason?

Joe:
It would be amazing some of the things that you’d get out. Now, there’s some trust that needs to be built up over time before you can get into some of this meatier stuff. I’m not saying you send the HR stranger into a room with random employees from time to time. There are some questions you can do that with, but for some stuff that maybe goes a little bit deeper, this is where – as a leader – of the work you’ve done to cultivate a sophisticated relationship with this person will buy you the sort of relationship capital that you need to probe a little bit and say, Hey, you know, yes, we spend most of our time talking about project updates and how are we gonna get through the week? And what are we doing next? But every once in a while, I’m just going to check in with you on some bigger picture stuff, because I want to make sure that I’m taking your temperature, giving you what you need to be successful, and that I don’t miss anything you might be struggling with or unhappy about. And if you set it up for them that way, and then you periodically ask them, Hey, what’s great? What’s not great? What would you like to change? Hey, if you weren’t here a year from now, what would be the reason? It’s amazing what you could learn. And you get a lot more out of that than grabbing somebody with one foot out the door to say, we really care about what you think.

Alyssa:
I love everything you just said and not to diminish it in any capacity, but whenever you said taking their temperature, I instantaneously went. Yeah. And an exit interview is like taking it rectally. It’s no fun for anyone. It’s all. It’s the poop that’s already happened. So, you got to work upstream or whatever that might be.

Joe:
Thank you, Alyssa, for the powerful visual that puts a questionable bow on the end of our “Stop It.”

Joe:
Well, folks, if you are listening to our show for the first time and you don’t like poop jokes, you’re probably not coming back. But if you liked what you heard today, please take a moment to subscribe. We welcome you into our community of BossHeroes. These are folks who strive daily to create the conditions for their people to thrive. You can hear us nearly everywhere podcasts are found, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, Audible, Google, iHeartRadio, and more. Or you can head over to the Boss Better YouTube channel and stream episodes there along the way. Please know that this is your show, and we’d love to hear your ideas for show topics or the questions that you are wrestling with when it comes to leading people, you can reach out to us, send us an email by emailing bossbetternow@gmail.com. Until next week, thanks for listening and thanks for all that you do to care for so many.

Alyssa:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.

 

 

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