18. Obstacles to Effort + “That Must Feel Awful”

Episode 18: Obstacles to Effort + “That Must Feel Awful” (Summary)

Why some employees try harder than others, the actors we’d cast to star in the movie about our jobs, and the one thing you should NOT say when an employee is sad, angry, or hurting. That’s what’s next on this episode of Boss Better Now.

Links:
To learn more about Joe Mull, visit his website ​Joemull.com​.
To hear more from Joe Mull visit his YouTube channel​.
To learn how to invite Joe to speak at an event, visit ​Joemull.com/speaking​.
To check date availability or to get a quote for an event, email ​hello@joemull.com​.
To explore options for coaching from Alyssa Mullet, visit ​Joemull.com/coaching​.
For more information on the BossBetter Leadership Academy, visit Joemull.com/academy.
Email the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.
To leave comments, ask questions, or to message us visit our Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook Page.
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*Full transcript under the comments below.

 

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Transcript – Episode 18: Obstacles to Effort + “That Must Feel Awful”

Joe:
Why some employees try harder than others. The actors we’d cast to star in the movie about our jobs. And the one thing you should not say when an employee is sad, angry, or hurting. That’s what’s next on this episode of Boss Better Now.

Alyssa:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. Please welcome speaker, author, and guy who overuses exclamation points in emails, Joe Mull.

Joe:
Welcome back BossHeroes, to the show that dares to suggest that most bosses care about being a good boss. If you are the kind of leader who genuinely works to inspire teams, get results, and be the kind of boss that people don’t hate, then we are your biggest cheerleaders and we welcome you to our little corner of the internet. Please welcome my co-host, professional coach, Alyssa Mullet. Hello, Alyssa.

Alyssa:
As the recipient of many an email from you, I think you write in which you speak – the manner in which you speak is very exciting. It brings it all to the table. And so, I feel like an email from you is like talking to you. So I feel like that’s appropriate. I’m good with that. I mean…

Joe:
I have to acknowledge, I’m a bit of a grammar snob. I will own that, right? I’m the person – that if I hear bad grammar in a commercial on the radio, or I see it in a headline on an article, I’m like, Oh, it’s the deterioration of society on the whole… Like put the apostrophe in the right place. Can we talk about your and you’re, and there, their and they’re? Uh, but so, so I’m a little bit of a grammar snob. And so I am aware that the grammar rules tell us that exclamation points should be used quite sparingly in written communication and in storytelling. But I don’t know. I guess when I write somebody an email, I want to come through the screen, it’s like, I’m a really friendly person. And I’m so grateful that you sent me this message. And so yes, they are there and I’m going to be okay.

Alyssa:
Well, I think you should be. I am the furthest thing from a grammar person. So, I take any communication that I’m given whenever it doesn’t come from a child as like manna from heaven. So it, you know, and if somebody wants to use exclamation points on me, I’m like, yeah, bring it.

Joe:
It’s like, it’s, it’s a symbol of love and enthusiasm. So I, I just want to embrace all the other folks who are listening out there, who, uh, liberally use exclamation points such as myself — welcome to the podcast.

Alyssa:
Let’s get into it. Whatcha got for us today?

Joe:
Well, yeah, we’re going to start today by talking about obstacles to effort and, uh, w you know, why do some employees try harder than others? And I wanted to talk about this today because it’s, it’s a conversation that seems to pop in to a lot of the leadership training I do in and around employee engagement. And so when we talk about engagement, and when you look at the research about engagement, we know that by and large employees fall into one of three buckets, they’re engaged, they’re not engaged, or they’re actively disengaged. And when painting that picture for leaders and talking about what each of those types of employees looks like, what each of those types of engagement, I should say, it looks like, um, inevitably the question comes up is every person I hire capable of landing in that engaged bucket, do they all have the potential to get there based solely on the circumstances I create for them in the workplace?

Joe:
And I always think that this is a really interesting question, and I will come right out of the gate and say, I’m not certain of the answer. I have an opinion. And actually part of the next book that I’m writing may tackle some of this a little bit, because it is related to where does commitment come from and how do you push the buttons and pull the levers to move people toward commitment. Um, and what inevitably ends up happening in some of these workshops is we have these really rich conversations about obstacles to effort. Why do some employees try harder than others? When you have folks who maybe aren’t giving it, all they’ve got, is that a failure of leadership? Is that a failure of fit of them being in the right role? Uh, and so where might you come in on the topic? Alyssa is, is every person hired for a job capable of being that rockstar, superstar employee? And if they aren’t, is it a failure of, of the leader of the institution in one way or another?

Alyssa:
So I love this because it actually just came up in a session this week with one of my coaching clients. Um, she’s a leader and she was talking about, you know, different ways in which she could motivate, um, some of her team and what my come back to is there is this, um, unspoken this about the expectations that we have as leaders about other people’s engagement. So the first thing that I feel like we have to do is name that, is it our expectation that they’re not engaged because they’re not engaged at the level in which we think that they should be engaged, right? So if they’re not actively pursuing a manager and training roles, if they’re not taking on additional duties, if they’re not doing all this, that lacks the effort that lacks the engagement, because we perhaps think that everyone wants to go to the next level.

Alyssa:
And I think that’s a falsehood. We have to kind of recognize those things might be what we would want if we were in that role. Maybe that’s why we’re in the role we’re in now in leadership, but not everybody has the desire to reach that level. So are we equating our own, um, expectations with their level of engagement because those two things are aren’t going to equal. Um, if we’re not and we’re, and we’ve had these kinds of conversations with folks about, they want that next rung, they want to be, you know, um, to the next level, then it becomes a matter of trying to translate in real terms to their job, what active engagement means. I love the teaser that you gave about your, your next book, about how commitment and motivation and all of that. So, and I would love to hear more about that piece of it and also speak to, do you think I’m, I’m off base here by, by saying that it’s sometimes a mix up between what we as leaders think level of engagement should be for a position versus what the realities of the actual employee wants and desires for themselves are.

Joe:
Yeah, no, I think you’re spot on that people, how their engagement shows itself really varies. You know, not everyone is a cheerleader. Not everyone’s enthusiasm for their work is outwardly visible. We have some folks in positions everywhere who very quietly go about their work, and we would absolutely consider them engaged if you define engagement as an emotional and psychological commitment, right. People who come to work and they care and they try, and for the most part, they give it all they’ve got. Um, I think some of what you speak to is the, the parts of engagement that are outwardly visible, differ from person to person, right? Sometimes if the leader defines engagement, as I’ve got this person who is filled with energy, like this kind of extroverted energy, or, or I’m, I’m climbing my career ladder, or I’m just very verbal about my enthusiasm for the work, do we, in one way or another rank them higher in our mental list than others and, and, and a lot of ways, that’s probably not fair.

Joe:
Uh, so I think that’s spot on. Um, I think the part of this that I think is trickiest is this notion that when someone is very, obviously not engaged, they are going through the motions, they are doing the minimum, they are, um, put off in one way or another by something about the workplace. Um, I, I have a lot of conversations with folks about, you know, I’ve got a great employee, but, you know, and they’ll tell me all the things that he or she does well, but then they’ll say they just don’t seem very invested or they, they, you know, they just don’t have any, any giddy-up in their step. They, they, you know, people are running circles around them and they’re just slow or they, it, and we translate that sometimes into, and it doesn’t seem like they care. And so if I’ve got that person on my team, I think what we wrestle with is, is that my fault or theirs?

Alyssa:
And, uh, as a coach. So the, my question then would be ask. Ask that question. Great, because when you’re talking about, you know, doing the bare minimum and just getting by, I also, you know, I’m thinking about my own performance in the last, you know, I don’t know, year. Um, but honestly, within the last like month, I have spoken to about this on the podcast before, where I feel like I keep running towards the finish line, the tunnel, uh, you know, I can see it, but it just keeps moving as close as I get to it. It just feels like it keeps moving away from me. And that’s a real thing that is happening in our brains, our bodies, our souls right now for a lot of people. And so I think that the only way to discern whether it’s that that’s going on, you know, this just general burnout of life right now, um, in the midst of again, the world changing consistently, constantly.

Alyssa:
Um, is it that, and should we be able to give people a little bit more lead way right now than we generally would two years ago? Absolutely. I think that that’s an imperative, right. But the first thing is you got to ask is this, you know, related to your job in the work that you’re doing, um, that you’re not feeling like it’s worth doing any longer, it’s no longer a fit for you, or is this just something as a symptom of what’s going on in the greater i.e. you? The person? Because again, part of our job as a leader is to actually show and demonstrate and communicate that you care about the person that is doing that work because that’s engagement on your part as the leader. Right?

Joe:
Right. And, and if at some point that person showed up in a way that made you believe they were giving it all they’ve got and they cared, and now they’re not, then the, uh, the obligation becomes what has changed and is that a change we can recover from? Uh, and if we can’t then what are our options going forward? And I think what’s really smart about what you just said, Alyssa, is that at its core, whether or not someone is giving their full effort probably does come back, come down to it, either being about the person or the position. And so if it’s about the person, you know, people walk through the door every day with their own baggage, right. And everything tied to how we were raised and how we define effort and what our work ethic is, his work ethic, a thing? I think it is.

Joe:
Um, and all of the other circumstances, all of the other forces at work on us going on in our personal lives with our families, with our kids, uh, you know, with our communities, all of these things are of course, going to influence my ability to have a high motor at work or to be all in mentally at work. Um, and so that’s kind of one column on the page is if this isn’t happening for someone it’s, is it about the person? Is it about some of these things? The column on the other side of the page is the position are, are the circumstances of the position. Now falling short to ignite the drive, to perform in the position. And there are so many reasons that could take place. Maybe I got a, uh, uh, a new manager and, and it’s not clicking. I got a bad boss.

Joe:
Maybe I have a new, a bad teammate, maybe some new responsibilities that I’ve been given. Um, I’m really struggling to meet those expectations. And, and that has slowed me down. Maybe the work has become rote, right? And, and become less interesting to me. And I need a change of scenery in one way or another in my work to light that fire again. And so that’s the other column on the page is the position. And so I think when leaders are faced with someone who isn’t giving their full effort, they have to do the work to find out whether or not it’s about the position. And then also do the work to find out whether it’s about the person and to a degree you could really only control as a leader, influencing the position, right? You could care about the person you could care about what’s going on in their personal life.

Joe:
And you could try to offer up resources and support for them to manage those difficulties. But if you do everything you can to offer that support and do everything you can to create the conditions at work for them to thrive, right. We talk about that a lot here on, on the show, and you’ve checked all those boxes and that person is still not firing on all cylinders at the very least, you know, you’ve done all that you can to try to make that happen for them. And let me point back to what I started with, which is, I don’t necessarily believe that every single person who gets hired and walks through the door has the capacity to be a rockstar, because some people are just lazy and some, some people are just going to do the minimum. And, you know, the sooner we accept that – “that’s not something I can fix.” If I, if I’ve given that person every opportunity to rise to the occasion, to do work, that interests them to provide support. Then at some point I got to say, yeah, this was just not the right person for the role, for whatever reason, they’re not able to match what we need them to do. I’ve been going on for a while. Now, I’m going to stop.

Alyssa:
Don’t stop, never stop, Joe. Cause you have this great ability… I want to make it all muddy and gray and ishy, squishy. And I’m like that, the people, and the effort, and the desire, all this, you know, intangible stuff and you’re like position and person and you make it very easy and very succinct. And people are like, Oh yeah, that’s what I can do. And I’m like muddy, muddy, muddy. So your clarity is always welcome. I appreciate it.

Joe:
So if we’ve got somebody listening who is in charge of a person that is just consistently underperforming in this way, their effort is lacking and they’ve pushed all the buttons and tweaked all the, the levers. And it was a terrible set up for that analogy. They’ve pushed all the buttons and pulled all the levers that they can think of to, to try to activate this person’s drive in the workplace. And they arrive at the conclusion that I have done all that I can, we’ve asked them to change. And they haven’t. What is the conversation that needs to happen next from that kind of coaching perspective in order to figure out the next step forward?

Alyssa:
I think exactly what you just said, you know, and I, as the HR, you know, again, recovering HR person, I’m like documentation and you make sure that, you know, documentation of every conversation you’ve had and all of those, you know, when you’re following your HR protocol for progressive discipline and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right. But at its core, it’s that conversation to say, we’ve talked about this, we’ve talked about this this time. We’ve talked about it this time. We’ve talked about it this time. And the fact of the matter is we’re still talking about it and it’s, it’s not doing our organization any good. And I can’t imagine that it feels good to you for us to keep having these conversations. So this is, will be our last conversation. And whether it’s like, okay, you’re out the door that day, or whether it’s the next thing, you know, is your last thing, because we’re not going to have this conversation. It will be, I wave to you, you know, and wish you well. You know, but I think it starts and ends with communication.

Joe:
Absolutely. And if we’ve had that ongoing communication, this kind of “Come to Jesus” moment, which is, it’s sometimes described as that, where we’re sitting down and saying, Hey, listen, we already had the now or never conversation. This isn’t working. If we’ve had the ongoing communication, then that conversation, isn’t a surprise,

Alyssa:
Right? Yep. Nope. And it’s not a surprise to them and it’s not a surprise to you because you know, and you can rest in the fact that you’ve done all that you could.

Joe:
Yep. And if you’ve been clear about the behaviors, you need that person to engage in, the changes you need them to make. And you’ve documented, as you said, which is so important that the pattern and the conversations you can point and say, Hey, you know what, this isn’t working. And here’s why. And we were able to show that and you know, I’m going to be an advocate for you to land in a, in a role that is good for you and, and really lights you up inside so that you can show up in a way that really makes a difference wherever you land, but you can’t continue here. Uh, we’re both in Pittsburgh and the former Pittsburgh Steelers head coach, Chuck Noll, had a famous saying, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this about him, Alyssa. I know you’re not a sports person, but I got to drop the sports analogies every once in a while.

Joe:
When He would cut players, he would sit down and he would say, it’s time for you to get on with your life’s work. It’s not this. And you know that that might sting a little bit. But if you’ve had all those conversations, you can frame that in a way that I think is actually empowering for someone you could say, you know, it’s time for you to get on with your life’s work. It’s not this, but I can’t, I really can’t wait to figure out what it is. And I really can’t wait until you figure out what it is. And I hope you’ll keep in touch because I have a feeling that you’re going to probably end up being happier someplace else, just based on everything we’ve talked about and everything we’ve seen together.

Alyssa:
That’s beautiful. I like that a lot. I’m not a sports person, but I like that.

Joe:
Yeah. I’ve used that phrase in conversations before and you know, on the surface, it, it, it feels, I don’t know, like it has sharp edges, but it doesn’t seem to land that way with folks. Um, and so take, take the Chuck Noll quote and use it. And remember BossHeroes, if someone is lacking effort, you have an obligation to try to address it relative to the position. Otherwise it might be your fault, but if you tinker with all of that a little bit, and you put in the work to try to care about the person and understand what’s holding them up and no change still occurs, then it’s not your fault. And the next choice is what are you going to do about it?

Joe:
All right, BossHeroes. We want to hear what you think. We want to know. Uh, if you are in agreement that not every person hired has the potential to be a rockstar, superstar employee, or do you disagree? Do you think that everything we just said is total hooey? Well, if you do, then let us know. If you’re watching online, you can drop a comment in the box below the video, or you can head over to the Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook page, and you can leave your comments there. And as always, you can email the show any time at bossbetternow@gmail.com. And if you liked this segment, please take a moment to share it on your LinkedIn or Facebook page.

Joe:
And that brings us Alyssa, the Camaraderie Question of the Week. We give folks listening to the show, a question they can take to teams and huddles to help them build camaraderie. Bosses develop camaraderie by helping employees find things in common with each other that don’t have anything to do with work. When you give people the opportunity to make those connections, they access each other’s humanity, which increases camaraderie and cuts down on team drama. And I’m not sure if you’ve heard that I am not a big fan of team drama. So our Camaraderie Question of the Week, my friend is this. If we were making a movie about our workplace, what actor would play you in a movie about your job?

Alyssa:
I don’t know that it’s job specific. I just have always identified. Um, and it’s going to sound cheesy, but primarily because she shares my name, Alyssa Milano, “Who’s the Boss?” Do you remember Alyssa Milano? Yeah. I just feel like, uh, I identify with her so much in the fact that, you know, cute little kid batted her eyelashes, whatever, you know, just to get what she wanted. And I’ve been guilty of that in the maybe not so distant past no. Uh, but I feel like she, she has this fun, comedic, uh, engaging personality on screen, but also like behind the scenes, you know, she’s written pieces for Vox and things like that. Nowadays she’s very politically active and she’s an activist in general and she could kick some butt and take some names and that’s that, you know? Yes. That’s who I want to, that’s who I would want to play me.

Joe:
That’s a really good pick. And I think you’re spot on. Was there anybody else that you were considering any other names that floated to the surface for you?

Alyssa:
Well, of course, you know, again, I grew up in the eighties, so like, I always want to say Julia Roberts, but I had a red-headed friend who totally had the Julia Roberts hair and just the wit and the personality to go along with it. So I could never really say that Julia Roberts was my persona that she could handle…. It was always belong to my other friend. So I think Alyssa Milano. I mean, of course, you know, Julia Roberts in, uh, Erin Brockovich, you know, the whole thing, like that’s would I’d love to have had that kind of impact. Maybe give me another 10 years. Maybe there is an Erin Brockovich story in me yet, but not right now.

Joe:
And it’s funny cause it’s the question becomes when you’re answering your question like this, do I pick the actor that maybe most closely resembles my appearance or personality or do I choose someone that I think would be like a step up from myself? Right? Somebody who…

Alyssa:
Are we going to go with the Hugh Jackman story again here, Joe? Cause, we’ve already used that.

Joe:
I did not think of Hugh Jackman to play me. Though, I wouldn’t turn down the casting because of the stunning resemblance. Um, (Alyssa: Of course, right. Ok.) But I mean, if… Let’s think about it, if we were picking somebody to play me in a movie based solely on resemblance and personality, then there’s only one guy…

Joe:
The Rock

Joe:
Mean, it’s like looking in a mirror, are you kidding me?

Alyssa:
Uh, can you do the eyebrow? (Joe: No, I can’t, I can’t do the eyebrow.) Oh, darn it. Oh, if you had done the eyebrow, I would have urged and really cajoled the audience to go to YouTube and make sure they get a visual on that.

Joe:
I mean, I could try to do the, eye the, the eyebrow, but I would just be some weird twitching on screen and nobody wants to see that. So I’m not gonna, I’m not going to be that. No, I’m, I’m being fun with The Rock. Um, no, if I had to pick somebody to play me in a movie, it would probably be Matt Damon. Um, I, you know, Matt Damon. (Alyssa: I could totally see that.) You think, I think that would probably make sense. We’re about the same height. He’s not a real tall guy. And um, he seems to have range, right? He was Jason Bourne and he was, um, the Martian, great movie. Right? So, uh, I’m going Matt Damon for this question that doesn’t feel out of range. You think Alyssa?

Alyssa:
No, absolutely not. Because I’m thinking, yes, he’s got the depth that you, you and he share that as well. And he’s a stable guy. He’s not like, you know his friend over there, Ben Affleck, he’s not so stable. So yes, I can see it on all levels I, I concur.

Joe:
All right. Our criteria is short and not crazy. He got the job. And that’s our Camaraderie Question of the Week. Alright, folks. We’ve got a great BossScript coming up for you right after this.

Joe:
Hey BossHeroes, check it out. One of the phone calls I get most often is the, we have one person here who really needs help, phone call. The leader on the line, tells me about an abrasive executive, a manager, not meeting the needs of his or her team or two physicians who can’t overcome conflict. Their question is always the same. Do you have any training I could provide for this person? I have to tell them the uncomfortable truth. Theirs is a problem that training won’t fix. The problems these leaders described require a different solution, coaching. A professional coach helps people explore new ways of thinking and operating while examining the root causes of their own behavior. When someone needs to examine their approach, adjust their style, become more adaptable, clarify goals, or navigate conflict, there’s only one coach I recommend, our own Alyssa Mullet. Alyssa is a professional and executive coach who works one-on-one with clients to tackle the issues that live behind closed doors. Experienced, credentialed, and revered by her clients, Alyssa can help you or any leader struggling on your team, design a path to achievement and professional success. I’ve sent Alyssa to clients all over the country and they rave about her every time, every single time. So if you have that one leader who is struggling, or that one leader is you, I strongly encourage you to invest in coaching. For more information on working with Alyssa or to get a quote, visit joemull.com/coaching.

Joe:
All right, folks, we’re going to finish up the episode today with a BossScript.

Joe:
That music reminded me of the WandaVision show. Did you watch the WandaVision show, Alyssa?

Alyssa:
I have not watched that yet. No, I’ve I can’t say as I’ve gotten real like enthusiastic about that. I know probably a bummer again for you, but…

Joe:
All the things that I like it doesn’t seem like you like and all the things that you like aren’t necessarily… But that’s why this works. I think, you know, we’re, we’re not going to be talking Star Wars and Marvel very often. Right. But that’s okay. Um, alright. So we’ve got a BossScript for you today, uh, to use whenever an employee tells you that they are feeling something. And what brought this up for me was a conversation recently that mirrors our conversation I’ve had over and over again with leaders for years. Uh, when they tell me about an employee who is struggling with and thinks that maybe they’re being treated unfairly or, or that they are unhappy about, uh, circumstances. It is unfortunate that too often bosses want to say, well, that’s not true. You shouldn’t feel that way. I had a conversation recently, um, with a terrific leader and experienced leader who didn’t necessarily notice that that’s what she was doing with one of her direct reports, who was also a manager who was really upset about some reorganization and who felt like they had gotten the short end of the stick.

Joe:
And she had really been working with this person to try to say, you know, that’s, that’s not true. Here…Here’s why this isn’t the way that you’re seeing it. And what we ultimately decided was we had skipped a step and the step was an acknowledgement of how this person was feeling. And this is such a simple thing. And that I think when leaders find that if they just insert this as a quick short step into their response, it can transform how effective they are in the moment. And so your BossScript for today, when someone comes to you and tells you that they’re feeling sad, awful offended, angry, bothered is to simply respond to at first, by saying, “That must feel awful.” And then you wait. This is a coaching thing, right, Alyssa? You use something like this with your peeps.

Alyssa:
All the “feeling” time. I refer to the feeling word as the F-word, because it honestly feels like such a bomb to a lot of folks that they don’t want to touch…. That they immediately go to exactly what you just said. They’re going to go to all of the logical reasons why whatever is occurring for that person isn’t the reality of what they are actually experiencing. And so you can’t fight feeling with logic.

Joe:
There’s REO Speedwagon song in there somewhere, “I Can’t Fight this Feeling Anymore.” I mean….sorry, you triggered….

Joe:
Triggered my 80’s music fandom there.

Alyssa:
But I feel like it is such a big thing for someone to come to you. And they might not even use the F-word, the feeling word — I feel like I have been. Right. And so what you have to do is look for that, you know, are they’re saying this is really unfair…. It’s, there’s no way that this could have occurred if, if they were actually looking at, do to do, to do, to do right. And you, as the leader are then responsible to say, ah, what I hear you saying is that you are experiencing feelings of…so it might be your job to also help them, you know, figure out the F- word that what’s the feeling there. Because no matter the amount of logic that you’re trying to apply to it, if they’re in the “feeling zone”, it’s not gonna matter. So being able to name it and to allow them to feel it and not trying to condition it the heck out of them is really imperative to helping someone feel truly heard. It might not solve the problem. It might not solve the whole issue. But you’re probably the amount of times that you’re going to hear about it in the future is going to be drastically reduced because they feel truly heard from you.

Joe:
And that’s the magic bullet for earning trust and respect isn’t that you have the answer or, you know, how to explain away the bad feeling. It’s that they really believe that you heard them. And so taking the words that they use and just giving it back to them, you know, if somebody says to use your example, you know, it sounds like the people in administration didn’t take a look at this or whatever, and just to be able to say, Oh, so it feels like they didn’t really pay attention to this for you. That must feel awful. And then we just wait. You know, who is really good at this, besides you as a coach, uh, my wife is very good at this and it’s because she’s a board certified music therapist and has spent years working in long-term care. And she did a lot of study and training in validation therapies.

Joe:
So that these are particularly useful when you’re working with people who have dementia and who can snap into some pretty strong feelings and memories. And so she’s learned how to use some of these tools and techniques. And I was asking her about this in the run-up to this episode and giving this as a BossScript. And I said, you know, what’s the most important thing for you. She says, I’m listening for how they frame it. And she said, almost exactly what you said. Cause they may not talk about feelings. She might say it sounds, or the person might say, it sounds like this, or they’re doing that. And so she said, you just use those same words right back at them. Oh, okay. So you think they’re doing this, this and this. That must feel awful. Or boy, I bet that doesn’t feel good. And so, uh, giving credit where credit was due, I want to also tell you what my wife told me, because I’m a big believer in, you know, giving smart people a platform.

Joe:
So through me, my wife also told me when it comes to this kind of approach that a great second follow-up question is, “Has there ever been any other times when you felt this way and how did you get through that?” And so, and, and you know, really you’re setting up for this conversation about, okay, so what did you do the last time you felt that way and how can that experience help you now? And so just feeling heard and giving people a picture that yep, they felt this way before and they came through it and maybe they can apply some of that learning this time around. Not only did you not have to have the answer in that moment as the boss, but you just demonstrated a depth of caring for that person by responding with “That must feel awful” and asking a question or two, and that’s going to get you where you want to go.

Alyssa:
Oh, Oh, that is a beautiful coaching right there. And you, you have an amazing wife. Jess, that was lots of gems. Thank you so much for bringing that up.

Joe:
Yes, absolutely. All right, folks. So that’s our show for this week. Please remember that you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts on Audible, on Google, on Spotify, on Amazon, on iHeartRadio, nearly anywhere else, where you can get podcasts. Please spread the word about our show by leaving a review or by telling your fellow bosses to tune in and check us out for now. Remember that going to work every day and concerning yourself with how others feel about what they do is a noble pursuit. Thanks for being the kind of boss who cares about being a kind boss. It matters. We’ll meet you right back here, next week. Take Care.

Alyssa:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.

 

 

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