101. Why Employees Are Leaving + Helping Staff with Urgent vs Non-Urgent

Episode 101: Why Employees Are Leaving + Helping Staff with Urgent vs Non-Urgent (Summary)

This week you get an exclusive sneak peek at my new book, as we’ll be talking about one of the biggest reasons employees everywhere are leaving employers. Plus, what are some ways to help team members cut down on bringing you non-urgent matters repeatedly that they think you need to address immediately? That’s what’s ahead now on Boss Better Now.

Links:
To learn more about Joe Mull, visit his website ​Joemull.com​.
To learn more about Suzanne Malausky, visit her website Weinspiretalentsolutions.com.
To hear more from Joe Mull visit his YouTube channel​.
To learn how to invite Joe to speak at an event, visit ​Joemull.com/speaking​.
To check date availability or to get a quote for an event, email ​hello@joemull.com​.
For more information on the BossBetter Leadership Academy, visit Joemull.com/academy.
Email the show at bossbetternow@gmail.com.
To leave comments, ask questions, or to message us visit our Boss Better Now Podcast Facebook Page.
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Transcript – Episode 101: Why Employees Are Leaving + Helping Staff with Urgent vs Non-Urgent

Joe:
This week, you get an exclusive sneak peek at my new book as we’ll be talking about one of the biggest reasons employees everywhere are leaving employers. Plus, what are some ways to help team members cut down on bringing you non-urgent matters repeatedly that they think you need to address immediately? That’s what’s ahead now on Boss Better Now.

Suzanne:
You’re listening to Boss Better Now. The show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Now, here’s your host, speaker, and author Joe Mull.

Joe:
That was very game showy, my friend. That was, I feel like the curtain was about to pull back.

Suzanne:
I felt like I needed applause or to have an applause soundtrack right there.

Joe:
We should, we can bring that in at some point, maybe next time. Absolutely. Well, welcome to the show of BossHeroes, listening from all over the globe. If you didn’t know this, this is really cool. You have made this show one of the top 100 management podcasts in the world according to the rankings over at Apple. That’s amazing. So, a big hug and a high five to every one of you — an HR-appropriate platonic work hug to everybody. I mean, think about the impact that you are having. Every time you tell someone about this show, or you share a favorite episode, or a favorite segment, you are inviting others to get support. As a leader, you are being of service to that other leader, and you’re also helping us fulfill our mission of filling the world with better bosses. So, thank you. Please keep telling others about the show, and please keep sharing the episodes in the segments that you find helpful, as it’s very likely they will be helpful to other leaders as well. And you’ve already heard her voice, but just to make sure we do it formally, please welcome back to the show, HR advisor and executive coach, Suzanne Malausky. Hello, Suzanne.

Suzanne:
Woo-Hoo. Hello, Joe. And hello, everyone’s listening. It’s great to be here today. Super excited.

Joe:
We have a lot going on and we, we’ve kind of are moving into this interesting phase. Just to kind of tee up everybody who’s listening we have started talking about this new book that I’ve written, and we are moving into this phase where we’re now just a couple of weeks from when it comes out. So, we are going to be sharing excerpts and information on the podcast. We’re really gonna be leaning into a lot of the ideas that I write about in the book as an effort to spread the word about how many things we’ve gotta get right to find and keep devoted employees. And we are, believe it or not, less than two months away from the release now. And so, we have decided that the show should be a place where we give people content from the book before it’s available to the public. And so that’s where we’re gonna start. Now, Suzanne, you have read the book.

Joe:
Right? Yes. How do we reconcile for listeners before we get into the excerpt here? I am very cognizant of not wanting every episode of this podcast for the next two months to sound like an advertisement, to buy a book. Now, people have a limited amount of time in their life. They come to a show like ours to get help, to get support. We have talked a little bit about this. Yes, I’m gonna be sharing excerpts from the book and talking a little bit about the book from behind the scenes. But why is that actually gonna be really helpful to people listening as someone who has read the book?

Suzanne:
Well, I think first of all, it’s very generous of you that you’re sharing content from the book because it’s, it’s under, it’s nice to understand the concept, right? You’ve got a great title you are speaking to, to modern problems. It’s very, very relevant and timely for the leaders all over our country, but also specifically for our leaders. So, I think sharing is, is just things that their takeaways, right? It’s not just about, hey, here’s when the book so you can buy it. It’s to really connect with and understand how people can utilize the content, how they can apply it, how they can actually maybe be additive, use it to be additive. The conversations they’re having maybe with their leaders, their teams about the challenges they’re probably collectively trying to address in their organizations. And I think I shared this with you before. I already have my 10 copies pre-ordered as I’m going to invite people in my network to be part of a book club.

Joe:
Oh, that’s amazing. 

Suzanne:
First…Yeah, right? So that we can discuss things, things, and it, it really, the information is specific, it’s timely and it’s actionable. So that’s what I love about your book. And I think giving people a taste of it is certainly very helpful. We want them to buy the book, but even if they just have some takeaways that they can go share it with other people like they’ve done before on, on these episodes, I think it’s very, very valuable.

Joe:
You know, it’s funny, I flashback to my freshman year of college. I think I’ve told this story on the show that you know, my mom didn’t even live paycheck to paycheck. There was no extra lying around anywhere. And when I went into my first year of college, I remember on Friday nights in the dorm room, there was this group of like six or eight guys of us that just hung out together. And every Friday night, everybody would throw in $2 or $3 to order pizza. And I never had the two or $3 and doesn’t sound like much, but I just didn’t. And so, I would sit there with my friends, and they would all eat pizza, and I would never partake because I didn’t throw in, and I would kind of wait and see if there was any left. And then when everybody else was done, if people were like, hey, do you want some, I’d be like, all right, cool.

Joe:
And so, it is never, ever, ever lost on me that not everybody can have $20 to throw out a book. And that’s why we do a show like this, right? Not every organization has the resources to provide training. Not every organization has.  the resources to invest in a book club you know, in 10 copies of a book to do a book club. And not every leader has the $20 in disposable income to get a book. But I still think it’s important to fill workplaces with better bosses. And so, every leader needs access to the ideas in the book. And so, yes, that, that is a big part of why I do that on this show too, is because you didn’t have to buy the book to get help. So, let’s, let’s dive in on that. So, the excerpt that I’m gonna share with you today, it’s only gonna take like a minute or two to read, is from one of the early chapters.

Joe:
And it speaks to why so much of the job switching in the workforce is taking place these last few years. And what leads up to this excerpt in this section of the book is the idea that workers are really tired. And that’s not a surprise to anybody when we think about burnout, but it’s not tired in the way that we think. And so, I am gonna read for just a few sentences beginning on page 49 of Employalty.

Joe:
More than anything, much of the job upgrading in the last few years has been driven by workers being really, really tired. Workers are tired of working demanding jobs for wages that barely pay the bills or don’t at all. They’re tired of a job whose long hours mean missing important moments in their kids’ lives. They’re tired of rude customers, bad bosses, crappy schedules, long commutes, tiny cubicles, crummy benefits, and no training. They’re tired of being on a team with abrasive leaders, toxic coworkers, low morale, crushing workloads, and no prospects for advancement. They’re tired of earning millions for their employer, but only getting a raise that doesn’t even cover inflation. They’re tired of a job that doesn’t end when they get home. That leaves no time for exercise or sleep or play. They’re tired of spending most of their waking hours prepping for work, going to work, working, leaving work, catching up on work at home, and then going to bed early to survive the next day at work. In short, employees are tired of having to work so very hard all of the time at jobs that are so very hard all of the time, people have looked at their lives and said, I’m tired of being constantly tired. This is a life lived by many for too long. And people have had enough. As Brene Brown said, I’ve never met a single person that had a joyful wholehearted life that was miserable at work. It is this desire for an upgrade to quality of life that is the foremost priority for workers nearly everywhere. And so, we find ourselves at a reckoning. How work fits into our lives is undergoing a massive shift. It started slowly more than a decade ago but is now happening at warp speed. Your talent pool is smaller than ever. Employees and candidates are more discerning than ever. They simply will not stand for a less-than-ideal employee experience. At the same time, competitors in your industry are doing what they can to engineer a better employee experience, to steal your best workers, while companies in other industries are getting creative by drawing talent from new and different places. In other words, employees are desperately seeking Employalty, and they’re beginning to find it.

Joe:
All right, Suzanne, everybody is really, really tired. They are tired of work, not fitting into their lives in all of the right ways. . . So let me invite you first to weigh in, to react, to comment on what you’ve just heard.

Suzanne:
Well, I can tell you the first time I read this when you shared the book with me, I remember feeling almost tired. Right? Like, I already felt tired, but I felt this burden or this weight from this. So, it’s a great way to, to put it out there, to make us hungry for what are the answers, right? But it’s, it’s reality. It’s the truth that, that people are experiencing. So, I, I like that setup. I can feel it, I can relate to it. Then I went into a little different perspective that I like to hear you; you react to in a way is it’s okay to be tired. You know, it’s not about taking life easy or making sure that we’re not challenged, or we’re not even asked to put a lot of effort and energy in the work that we do. It’s more that totality. Either the having resources we need to work hard in efficient way or effective way. It’s having realistic timeframes around when we show up and when we leave. So, I want to hear that from you though. It’s not about, we shouldn’t have to work hard to, to make a living. Right.

Joe:
Right, right. Okay. You know, the myth that comes with some of this conversation is around work ethic. And we’ve talked about that a little bit on the show. We’re actually gonna talk about that in some future, future episodes. That sometimes what gets convoluted in the message is, especially from people who might be a little more old school, is, well, these people, these kids today, they just don’t wanna work hard. Right? And so, they think that the message of a passage like that is less hard work. And I think there is absolutely a misconstruing of that idea. The real issue is we need less work that’s endlessly hard, right? We need less work where the work, the job itself is constantly soul-crushingly hard for people. Where the workload, the schedule, the hours, the demands, the stress are always sort of maxing out on the, on the scale, so to speak. I, I tell audiences sometimes that in a perfect world, you would be telling your employees, we don’t want you to have to work as hard as you can all the time. We don’t want you at a hundred percent of your capacity and effort all of the time.  I want you at about 80% most of the time. So that on days when, when you know, you know what hits the fan, or we have a cranky customer, or we’re, we’re working together to rally to meet a deadline on days when I need you to give a hundred percent, you can do so easily, and you will do so without hesitation. So, I think that’s a big part of this. The other part of it too, is that not every job is as demanding as other jobs. And so, if you employ people into roles that do require some emotional capital that do require people stepping into difficult circumstances and doing difficult work, you have to recognize that not everybody wants to live in that space and under that kind of pressure all of the time when they’re at work. . . So, there’s a, there’s a certain amount of ebb and flow that we need to create for people that I think has been lost over the years. And that’s what I think this passage really speaks to.

Suzanne:
Yeah. I think it does too. And I, I’m mindful of, I had the opportunity to do some work in a refractory, so people are still out there working with steel – hot, molten stuff. Right. And so, they literally have to walk into the furnace and stoke the fire, you know, move the material around a little bit. And I love that kind of, you can’t do that a hundred percent of the time. Right? That’s gotta be a small part of your day. It’s, it’s taxing. So, they’ve worked really hard from a safety and security perspective to make sure people are okay. And then when I got in front of them and talk about the work environment and the culture, you know, they’re very loyal. It’s hard work, but they’re very loyal. They’re proud. Yeah. You know, so this company’s doing a lot of things right. It doesn’t mean they’re gonna face a lot of these challenges as more and more people maybe don’t choose those careers. But you know, we also wanna recognize there are people trying really hard to do it. Right. But what you bring are some more solutions, more opportunity to have the conversations. And if we don’t do it, what happens? Right. I, I just am excited, Joe, is when you and I sit down 15, 20 years from now, maybe we’ll be on an, our separate tropical islands or something <laugh> and reflect back on this, you know, I, I love being part of the solution in life. Yeah,

Joe:
Yeah.

Suzanne:
You know, I just love helping people, or inspiring people to figure out how to make their lives easier or do a better job at things. And that’s what this work is, right? Yeah. It’s some of the answers that people are seeking to figure out how, how to make it better.

Joe:
If we, if we get islands, let’s position them somewhat close together. We can put two cups and some string in between and we can just, you know, just talk about that style each other up. Yeah. Yeah. Every once in a while, <laugh>, you know, but I, you make such a great point too, which is we can have a big argument about whether or not people should be tired, but that’s a waste of time. Right? What’s the solution?  Let’s acknowledge that work has morphed and changed, but so too has life outside of work, and we know that people have more middle-aged people are taking care of elderly parents than ever before. There’s a childcare crisis taking place in the United States right now. Wages have been stagnant for more than 40 years for people on the bottom half of the socioeconomic ladder. And so, we know that the stress of life is heavier perhaps than at any other time in recent decades. And so that tiredness of work, it permeates into a life where people are already tired from all the other things and all the other burdens they’re asked to bear. So, if your job can pull back the throttle a little bit on the intensity of work, and, you know, create a work experience that fits into people’s lives more so than overwhelming people’s lives, I think you, you absolutely become an outlier for a lot of folks, whatever industry that you’re in. And I think what we, what really needs to happen, and one of the ideas that I think I advocate for strongly in the book is that we have to reimagine work in a couple of different ways. And that maybe what we expect one person to reasonably accomplish in a job has grown ridiculous. Maybe the schedule that worked for people 40 hours a week, 48 hours a week, five days a week, while doing some things on the weekend, while doing some catch at night on the laptop. Maybe that doesn’t work at all anymore. And maybe we create an extraordinary competitive advantage for ourselves when we tell candidates and the talent in our organizations. We don’t want you to live like that. And I think that can be daunting for some folks, Suzanne, to think, oh, we’ve gotta reinvent work. Sure. What does that look like? But I think you come back to the humanity of it all, which really does start with some boundary setting. It really does start at the individual level with folks and saying, hey, how do we make this a job that fits into your life in just the right way without taking it over?

Suzanne:
I like that you called that out, Joe, because I also think about our listeners and empathize with some of the people out there, the bosses that feel or may feel like they have no control over some of these things, these things that cause tiredness and fatigue. Yeah. But they do have opportunity. They do have power to make somebody’s life a little easier or to make impact or influence others. And I think what this book does, it gives us that bigger picture for maybe some people that are making the big policy decisions at the top of the house, but it also brings it right down to that floor level where you have our supervisors and our managers with every opportunity to make a difference.

Joe:
As well. Yeah, absolutely. Well said. Well, as part of our road to employee coverage, boy, if we were like a TV news show, we would have one of those chyrons at the bottom of the screen that was like road to 2024, you know, as part of our road to Employalty. We’re gonna be doing another special segment here on the show in the weeks ahead for just a couple of minutes each time, and Suzanne’s gonna tell you about that.

Suzanne:
For sure. You know, you may remember that Joe has promised to periodically take us behind the scenes of what’s happening to bring this book out into the world. So, each week he’s going to share a little nugget or an update that you all hear anywhere else in a short segment. We are calling Behind the Book.

Joe:
How do you not love a good timpani roll every once in a while?

Suzanne:
Well, sure.

Joe:
You know, I thought, what a little sound effect can we put there for this Behind the Book segment? And for a while, I was looking for a decent typewriter sound, and then I just felt really old cuz I’ve typed on a typewriter.

Suzanne:
<Laugh>, no one would know what that was.

Joe:
Yeah, right. The, the book wasn’t written on a typewriter, you know, and <laugh>, then I found the timpani roll and I’m like, it’s gonna work. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. It’s fun. So yeah, let’s talk a little bit about some behind-the-book stuff. And I thought I would share a quick story with you about the endorsement we got from well, from someone. It just really took my breath away. So, when you write a book, you’ve gotta share it with other people and ask them to say nice things about it. We know that media coverage and sales and a whole lot of other things can be tied to what are called blurbs or endorsements. So, if you pick up a book that you are looking at in a bookstore or look at online, you will often see an endorsement on the top cover from somebody famous or established in that industry. You sometimes will see them on the back of the book or inside the covers of the book. And so, we had to go through the process of asking people to take a look at this book in its draft form and consider endorsing it. And I am thrilled that Jim Clifton, the chairman of Gallup, has endorsed Employalty. Yeah, you made a wow face, Suzanne, thank you for that. This took my breath away. I don’t know Mr. Clifton and know I’m not gonna call him Jim, because I we don’t have that kind of a relationship. He’s Mr. Clifton in my world. Yes. And I feel like I know him cuz I’ve spent the better part of the past 15 years reading and following and using much of the research from Gallup on employee engagement. When we think about how to shape workplaces into environments that allow people to thrive. And you know, if you’re outside of the, of the leadership development or employee engagement world, you might not know who Jim Clifton is. But if you’re even remotely inside that world, you know that, that Gallup is the preeminent employee engagement researcher on the planet, and he is the leader of the organization. His name is synonymous with much of what we know about what it takes to create an environment where employees can be at their best. And so, this was a cold call. This was me working to find a way to contact him on the internet. And I did. And I sent him a long letter and I said, you know, I introduced myself briefly talked about my background and the influence that his research has had on the world and in my work in particular. And told him how excited I was to share this book with the world. The framework upon which w the, the, you know, sits on top of a lot of the research that Gallup has done, I cite a lot of Gallup’s research in the book.  and a short while later, not long, I got the loveliest note back from him and he had spent a little bit of time with the book, and he wholeheartedly endorsed it. I’ll tell you what he said. I just gotta pull it up here so I get it exactly right.

Suzanne:
Don’t mess this up.

Joe:
Right. If you pick up a copy of the book, this is what’s across the front cover. “The biggest leadership issue organizations face is creating a culture of committed team members in the new workplace, in Employalty Joe Mull shows how to attract and retain star employees that will help your company win in the post Covid world.” And I am just so, so grateful. We have emailed a little bit back and forth as, as this came to light and as he granted us permission to share it with the world, I’m still completely in awe of the fact that this man’s name is on my book given the significance of his work in this space for so many years. . , but he could not have been lovelier Suzanne about it from start to finish. No, that’s wonderful. And I’m just, I’m just really proud that for me, it, it airs some legitimacy. It lends some legitimacy to it, you know, when the preeminent for sure researcher in the world says, yes, this is the right direction. And so, he’s…

Suzanne:
You know, I feel like he’s the beginning of this revolution that we’re, we’ve jumped on Yes. And have become a part of the… just really changed how we think about that employee experience with his, with his research, but also with his, you know, writings and what he does to, to move this forward. So, I’m in awe too, <laugh>. But I, I think there’s another lesson here, if you don’t mind me saying, for our listeners, that had to be very risky. I mean, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re like using your little spy Spidey senses and, you know, find, trying to find this and I imagine write his email and then I imagine writing it. In that moment you hit send, you probably, you know, you could have thrown up a little bit, right? And I think the message is take the risk take. Yeah. Give it a shot. You never know, you know, we’re watching American Idol, go to the audition. Yes. Try it out, send the email. I think that’s an inspiring message for all of us who have, you know, are working on some goals or things we wanna do in life that was relatively risk-free, though it made you feel very vulnerable, I would imagine. Cuz the worst thing to say is no. Yeah.

Joe:
But you’re, you hit the nail on the head. I think the I, I was thinking about that as, as I was kind of rambling on and on about the endorsement that it’s like, just send the email. Like, you gotta ask for what you want in this world. And that’s right. If you don’t ask, then it’s never gonna happen. And, you know, full disclosure, I sent the book to 15 people who either said no or never replied, right? <Laugh>. So, see.

Joe:
So, see, you still gotta go and wade through all of that. But, you know, there were a number of, and I’m gonna share some more of them in the weeks ahead, but there are some just incredible people who spent some time with the book and who said, yes, this is good stuff here and, and the world should, could pay attention. And if we only rely on the people, that know us and love us and don’t actually reach for a little bit more sometimes, then something like this doesn’t ever happen. So, you’re absolutely right.

Suzanne:
You’re limiting ourselves — good. 

Joe:
Ask for what you want. 

Suzanne:
So, that’s great.

Joe:
All right. That’s, that’s our little Behind the Book segment.

All right. Well, this is the point where dear listeners, I politely ask if you are able to, if you have the means, I’d really appreciate it if you would pre-order a copy of Employalty. You can get it anywhere books are available. You can go to Amazon; you can go to Barnes and Noble. It’s on Target, it’s on Walmart’s website. Now if you wanna support your local bookstore, just fire up your web browser or your cell phone and go to indiebound.org i-n-d-i-ebound.org and you can order on their site and source the book from your local independent bookstore, which I think is just super cool.

Suzanne:
That’s cool.

Joe:
Yeah. So, if, if you get value out of these podcasts that we’ve been doing free for a couple of years now, or the emails that we send would mean a lot if you would pre-order the book. And it would even mean even more if you pre-order two. I’m not gonna lie, <laugh>. And that’s the ask for this week.

Joe:
And that actually brings us to Suzanne, the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Joe:
See listeners you might have forgotten, you might have thought to yourself, do I gotta do the Behind the Book segment in place of the Camaraderie Question of the Week? Because Joe, that is not a sacrifice I’m willing to make. I’m too big of a fan of the Camaraderie Question of the Week. And to you, dear listener, I say, have no fear. The Camaraderie Question of the Week is here. And so, this week, Suzanne, the question is simple. What is the story behind your first name?

Suzanne:
Oh, that’s an easy one, but I have to tell you my middle name to get it there. Get us to the story. Oh, I love it.

Joe:
Go ahead. 

Suzanne:
Getting more than you asked for. How about that? I’ll take it. So, my, yes. So, my name is Suzanne Carol, and we have our family history, all the thank goodness, all what, what’s the word I want? Family charts back for many generations.

Joe:
Genealogy

Suzanne:
Thank you. Something. All those things. Something like that. Family tree. 

Joe:
Family tree. Yes.

Suzanne:
<Laugh>. Yes. There, it’s dinging. Ding, ding, ding.

Joe:
We’re good with the words.

Suzanne:
Yes. And I must have used ’em all up at the beginning of the segment here, <laugh>. So, so we could look back and look at all of them. So, I was named after like a great-great-great grandmother who was Susan Caroline, but mom switched it up and dad to Suzanne Carol. And if I would fill out the little forms, I could be a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution.

Joe:
Oh, so you’ve done that trace back there, huh?

Suzanne:
My, yeah… Well, other people did, not me. Yeah.

Joe:
Okay. You’re along for the ride.

Suzanne:
Thought I could capitalize on their work <laugh>. 

Joe:
Absolutely. <laugh>. Listen, we’ve all capitalized on other people’s work, including family members. That’s right. There’s no shame in that <laugh>.

Suzanne:
No, not at all. <Laugh> as long as we give them credit.

Joe:
That’s right. That’s right. Outstanding. Suzanne Carol, very pretty. Thank you for sharing.

Suzanne:
Yes, thank you.

Joe:
What about you? Well, my first name, I don’t have any kind of great story. My dad was Joseph and his parents picked biblical names and, and so like, they had a son James and another son Joseph. There’s a Richard. So, we had, we had a lot of biblical names coming from that side of the family. And so, when my mom and dad got pregnant, and I think it was never a discussion, it was, this is going to be, this is Joe — Joseph John Mull Jr. I got the double biblical name Joseph John. Oh, yep.

Suzanne:
Nice. Joseph. Well, should we call you JJ <laugh>?

Joe:
People tried that for like 10 minutes. I was like, no, <laugh>, I’m gonna put the kibosh on that. Yeah. When I grew up, when I was growing up though, I was always ‘Little Joe”, so my dad was Joe, and I was little Joe and I even had stocking for a couple years that said, “Little Joe”.

Suzanne:
Aw, yeah. How cute.

Joe:
Yep. 

Suzanne:
How hard was it to name your babies then?

Joe:
Oh man, that’s a whole other segment. Isn’t that awful? Yeah, we could do that. Yeah. No, but sure I’m with you cuz. Well, miles, my son Miles, his middle name is Joseph after me, so we carried go it forward there. Go. we wanted to include it in some way, but I didn’t wanna do Joseph John Mull the third. It just Mm. Didn’t, didn’t roll off the tongue for us.

Suzanne:
Yes, I understand. That was one of our discussions too, but a last for another segment. Yes.

Joe:
Yes. And I think this is a fun question for teams. If it is, if you have a few minutes to let people share, or maybe you can’t have everybody share, but you have a couple people volunteer to share, especially if they have a, an interesting story behind their first name. Like, for example, my sister’s name is Christina, and she is named Christina because when my parents were married and my dad was in the service stationed over in Germany and my mom was with him, they had a neighbor who had a little girl named Christina. And she would always open the window, the mom would open the window, stick her head out and call down to the little girl Christina. And my mom loved the way that it sounded <laugh>. And so, when they got pregnant with their second, my sister they named her Christina. That’s a fun story.

Suzanne:
Very nice. Says she has a good story too.

Joe:
Yeah. Excellent. And that’s the Camaraderie Question of the Week.

Suzanne:
We have so much going on in this episode!

Joe:
We have a little teaser to share. We have a huge announcement next week. And I guess this is kind of a teaser, kind of a reveal if you. If listeners have ever wanted to join Suzanne and I for an intimate live Zoom Q&A, or if you’ve ever wanted to be in the virtual audience while we record one of these shows from start to finish, then you’re gonna want to tune in next week because we are going to make that happen. You are gonna have the chance to be one of a handful of listeners that joins us for a VIP listener experience. So that’s your teaser hashtag teaser more on that coming next week. I’m excited about that.

Suzanne:
Me too.

Joe:
All right. And that brings us to the final portion of today’s show Mail Time.

Joe:
We have an email here from Amy. It is short and sweet and to the point, but she asks a fantastic question. Here’s her message. Hi, Joe, I appreciate everything I am learning from your podcast. Here’s my question. What advice do you have for leaders on helping staff differentiate between urgent and non-urgent issues and communicate accordingly? Oh, Amy, yes. <Laugh>. I know so many leaders who struggle around this, especially if you’re still in the office together and you’re one of those folks who gets interrupted a lot. Right? Or if you are getting texts or a lot of emails and you’re sort of constantly having to direct people or answer questions, I’m filling in some gaps here. I don’t know if that’s exactly.  the kind of circumstance that Amy’s talking about. But I know as soon as I saw this question, Suzanne, I was like, oh yeah, I’ve been there. What about you?

Suzanne:
Oh, absolutely. I was just working with a leader; I think I shared this with you offline on how not to respond or how to manage what we called employee clickbait.

Joe:
Ah,

Suzanne:
Because maybe they come it so it, it could fit in this scenario. You know, the urgent issue they come to you with maybe gossip.

Joe:
Yeah.

Suzanne:
Maybe an observation or just something they’re doing that probably that, you know, that isn’t necessarily going to contribute to the work that needs to be done that day. Yeah. and so, we talked through and said, well, what do they really need? I always say, what’s the question behind the question? Yeah. What do they really need? Do they need attention? And some, you know, one-on-one time they don’t get to talk, they need to talk, it could be of an interpersonal kind of thing, or do they need some job skills, some clarification of expectations. So, I, I think I, I see lots of scenarios, but I think they is the need of the employee is where I tended to go. Yeah. Right. So, does that mean, is it training? Is it job coaching? Is it setting them up with ways to understand the boundaries? Or is it more of that time that they need and maybe it’s a little different kind of feedback or support that you give them? Yeah,

Joe:
That’s my, I think your, your point about the problem underneath the problem is spot on. I think that for a lot of employees, they’re used to having a somewhat dependent relationship with their direct supervisor. And that’s their job. That’s my boss’s job is to have the answers when I have the questions and to be available and answer those questions. And so, we get into these loops where people just walk to, or call or text or email the boss and say, how should I handle this? What do you want me to do about that? And we end up having a leader with 12 direct reports who can get nothing done because they spend their entire day answering questions around things that in a lot of cases, the employee may be able to handle without asking the question, or situations where the employee has the information, they’re just looking for validation that they’re right. Because they’re afraid of making a mistake. And so, in this circumstance, I think one of the things that a leader can do is to have a conversation with the group where you appeal to, to people’s desire to be helpful. And yes, it’s true, not everybody on your team wants to help you, but I, I like to operate on the premise that most people are good people, and we can tap into that and, and, and that’s the best assumption to have.

Joe:
Yes. In this, in this circumstance, we can leverage that. And so maybe that sounds something like, hey everybody, I’m gonna ask you for a little bit of help. I’ve been finding lately that I’m doing a lot of kind of rapid response to individual questions and individual needs in real-time. And because there’s only one of me and there’s 12 of you, I’m really struggling to get anything done, right? Yes, you may, you each may only come to me with a question once or twice a day, but you add it all up. That’s 24 interruptions and I’m just really struggling to get some things done. And so, here’s what I’m gonna ask you to do when you have a question, I’m gonna ask you to evaluate whether or not this needs an answer right now. And if it need needs an answer right now,  here’s the criteria by which we define that, right? Is it urgent or emergent? You know, we, you can, you can kind of g figure out what, what to say and help people define a right now situation.  for where you work, but if it’s not a right now, here’s two or three options I want to give you for how to proceed. One of them is, is this something that I have the agency to go and handle myself? Is this something that I know and understand? Am I asking this question just so I feel better and or I’m playing CYA, we all know what CYA stands for, right? Am I playing CYA by asking the boss? You can coach people as a group through the, the, the, the parameters of the criteria around when to ask for urgent and, and when something is non-urgent. And then you can also I think, reinforce that with thanks and praise on days when you don’t get a lot of interruptions where, hey everybody, I’ve noticed a change here where everybody really has given me some time and space to get some things done and this is working really well, and I want to thank you for it and keep it up.

Joe:
And especially if you have individuals who are, who are, you know, bigger offenders of this than others, if you have somebody who comes to your office 10 times a day with questions, and you can get that down to five, I call that a win.

Suzanne:
Right? Right. Progress can be slow.

Joe:
Progress. Yeah. It’s progress.

Suzanne:
Right.

Joe:
And then at an individual level Suzanne, and you alluded to this a little bit, I have an idea around coaching as you, as you mentioned, but I think it’s a very specific kind of coaching in this circumstance. I, I know a lot of other folks who might say, well, you need to coach that person in the moment to evaluate, okay, Suzanne, is this something that needs an answer right now? Or is this something that can win? And I think every time a leader does that, it’s probably most often experienced as sculpting. Right. It almost feels condescending in the moment. Okay. and so, I think a, I think coaching is a great move here when somebody is interrupting you with something non-urgent, but it’s not that kind of coaching. The kind of coaching that I would engage in in that moment is around coaching to the solution.

Joe:
When they bring you the question or the interruption or how do you want to handle this? You say, okay, well what options do you see? Yep. Yep. Okay. That sounds like a good, a good next step. And then what are you gonna do after that? See Suzanne, you’ve got this, you don’t need me… I trust you, go do what you’re gonna do…And you give them praise and you feed that trust and you support them, and you help lay the groundwork mentally for them, for the confidence that they need to act without your counsel. And that can take some time. It really does. But that’s the whole like, teach a man to fish and he eats forever kind of thing that we talk about sometimes here.

Suzanne:
Yeah. It’s empowerment and enablement because that the problem behind the problem could be lack of confidence. You’re new to them, they don’t know how to trust you. Maybe it’s, even having conversations about mistakes are okay. I’d rather you try, and we fix it than not try at all. It could be some coaching around that too. I love that. Yeah. I You don’t wanna scold people. Yeah. And you don’t wanna shut your door and not allow them to have some avenue to reach you.  when they need to. I like that advice. I also like the idea of one-on-ones. I’m a big proponent. Yes. you know, so maybe there’s a little bit of the habits of those things that are not urgent, that they save for their one-on-one time if possible. And then by the time they get there, it might have gone away, or they might have resolved it and that they can share that too. But that might also be, depending on the work environment you’re in an alternative that that could work. Yep.

Joe:
This is something that Jamie and I talk about a lot cuz I travel so much and we’re not always in the same workplace together and it, we could end up trading a hundred text messages or phone calls a day. Yep. And it’s, and we both, our capacity is, is just maxed out. And so, we, we keep a jo list and a Jamie list. I have a little Jamie list in my notebook. She has a Joe list. You know, if there’s something that comes up that she wants clarification on or wants to ask, she’ll jot it down on her notebook and she knows it’s probably not gonna be more than a day or so between a conversation, right?  So, I’m prob we probably talk once a day at least. And even when I’m traveling and speaking on the road, and she knows that when we get those precious few minutes to jump on the phone together, she’s like, all right, I got a little Joe list going here, let me run through this with you. And that’s a really efficient way to think about it. But I also have, I have something really funny. Suzanne <laugh>, you just, you just said a minute ago, you don’t wanna shut your door. And literally the last piece of advice on my list is shut your door <laugh>.

Suzanne:
Okay. I meant all the time. 

Joe:
Right. Not all the time. Right, right, right. And I think I you’re allowed to, yeah. I had this really interesting conversation with a fellow leadership trainer the other day about how she had been coaching a leader who had created this really codependent relationship with her team. Right. Her idea of being a successful boss was being needed. And so had really created this structure where they couldn’t operate without her. And then when other things came down the pike, processes, and things like that from her bosses, she wasn’t able to get anything done. And so, this person told her, I want you to close your door. I want you to pick an hour a day where you close your door to get something done. And I promise you nobody’s even going to notice. And this manager was absolutely convinced that people would be banging on the door, people would be worried about her.

Joe:
They wouldn’t understand why the door was closed. And so, he finally convinced her to try it. And she did. And she said, you, you’re right. Nobody even noticed. Nobody cared. And so sometimes, and I’m not saying this is the case for Amy who sent this email in, but sometimes the boundary setting goes both ways. And that boundary setting might need to be turning off your email or only checking your email in like the morning. And at the end of the day, if you’re able to do that it might mean silencing your phone for a while you can di dive in and get some things done. And it might mean closing your door. And this is where I go back to that group conversation that we talked about. I think at the beginning you can say to your team I’m gonna ask you to show up in this way and to evaluate these things as urgent and non-urgent, but you’re also gonna see me putting some boundaries in place to try and get some other things done. So, if my door is closed or I don’t answer your call right away, know that I will get to it just as soon as I can. And, and so that, that I think can be helpful.

Suzanne:
I do too. And I just love that notion of whether it’s about saving time, setting priorities, working on projects that anytime a leader stands up there and says, here’s what’s going on, I need your help, or here’s how you can help, or here’s my expectations. It’s beautiful because you, you’ve squashed assumptions. You know, you, you’re taking care of so people don’t think you’re in there sick or crying even if you are. Right. But they, oh, no, no. We’ve established she wanted some alone time, or she’s going to carve out two hours in the afternoon to, to work on X. Yep. so, I like that. And, and I think leaders don’t do enough of being transparent about their intentions and the reasons they’re doing things. It’s left to be some secret. And, you know, it’s like gossip. People fill in where they haven’t gotten the right information, they fill it in. So, you don’t wanna make a story up about you. Yeah. Go tell your team what, what’s you’re working on and what’s going on and how they can help.

Joe:
And I love that it, that it aligns with our, some of our core values that we’ve espoused on the show around transparency and vulnerability, right? . . . . Like there is power in saying, hey y’all, I’m struggling with this and, and you’re making it about you and not them. Right? You’re not making it about, hey, you all are too needy. Right? <laugh>, that’s not the message.

Suzanne:
You’re all getting on my nerves, and I do something about it. Yes.

Joe:
<Laugh>. Right? I need you all to get better at only asking me for things when the building’s been burning for 10 minutes instead of five. Right? That’s not no. Right. But you can make it about you and say, hey, I’m trying to find this balance here and I could use your help and let’s, let’s have that conversation. . . So, Amy, hope that’s helpful to you. Keep us posted. You can email the show, Amy, and you BossHeroes listening can email the show as well. Send us your questions. We’d love to answer them on the show. Just send them to bossbetternow@gmail.com.

Joe:
And that’s our show for this week. Friends, thank you so much for listening and thank you for all that you do to care for so many.

Suzanne:
This show is sponsored by Joe Mull and Associates. Remember, commitment comes from better bosses. Visit joemull.com today.

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